Take this trouble for me - Page 2

Guide Dogs for the blind, we have GSD doing the job in the UK but between the SL and WL it would be a nightmare for someone to find a dog with the qualities needed with no experience of the breed. There is also the image to consider, a nice friendly lab is more acceptable than a big male shepherd.
The Guide Dog Lab is almost a sub breed as the qualities required for gun dog work have been massively reduced for obvious reasons.

The GSD must not be drawn into an arms race with the malinois, competing with its speed and prey drive, also in terms of police/security/military demand the Mal is cheap animal to buy and keep. The Mal has plenty of its own issues to worry about.

The sport is not working argument is naive. Its the breeding which is the working element not the day to day role. Most of the 2000 K9's in the UK are bred massively from Schutzhund/Working Trial Dogs. I have access to 35 of these as a Sgt on a Firearms team, and I ask great things of the dogs/handlers that support my team.

Take two brothers; one runs a shop, very focused on customers, really nice guy, in the evening he does a bit of martial arts, plays a bit of football etc. The other becomes a soldier and serves for many years. There mental and physical abilities are similar, as is there work and team ethic. Once is tarnished by negative experiences (soldier) the other lives a life with nicer experiences. Their genetics haven't altered, they could swap roles, given time, a great example being our grandfathers who left there lives to fight in WW2.

You can split hairs with above example, but for me it's Police K9 and Schutzhund Dog BUT it's all hinged on breeding the qualities in the animal in the first place.

not splittin hairs , but just trying to point out that the working term referred to by max was a bit different than todays sportdog or showdog
captain max tried to create a breed that was capable of many jobs from which many didnot include biting

not many of those jobs are nowadays still filled by mostly GSD

so thats why I asked , define working dog

My girl came from showlines.  I bought her for a pet but soon figured out she had too much drive to lie around the house so we located a SchH club and started working her in obedience.  Someone commented on my german line dog (LOL) but then we started getting more and more compliments on her so we took her to a conformation show (NOT AKC) and she received a rating SG.  Hmmm.  So months later, we had her tested for herding instinct and she was amazing.  With no guidence at all she collected a herd of goats and brought them to the judge.  We repeated it with another judge and received her HIC.  She just recently earned her BH.  Of course we are going to see if she can make it to SchHIII but we intend to find other jobs for her to do and see what other titles she is capable of earning.  We get her hips x-rayed a week from today which will determine if she gets spayed or not.  We keep trying to find reasons not to breed her but she continues to prove us wrong each time.  I want to make sure she is a working dog first.  Just my opinion on what needs to be done to even consider breeding a GSD.

 Dabbling in a little of this, a little of that is not determining if your dog is able to work. If you reach the highest level of herding, the highest level of Sch, then the dog has told you something.

The you look at the litter. The parents. Is your dog a fluke out of the litter, or the "one" with good drives ? I would not worry about spaying the dog, just get the dog out working.

From what you have said, there is not enough information available. What are you doing in Sch ? Still just the OB ?

No Jeff, we just finished our BH. We are doing the tracking, working on retrieve without destroying the dumbbell LOL, she wants to take bites out of the ends and bite work. She loves going over the jump and the wall. I was told to back off on the tracking. Before I was "properly instructed", Echo was doing FH level tracking over different terrains, paved roads, tall grass, mowed grass, water...heck we didn't know any better. We were having fun. Now we are focusing on targeting articles. We have access to a Schutzhund club in our area but will have to go out of state for good herding training so for now we are aiming for the SchHI.
Here are some pics of her the first time she ever saw a goat and some recent bitework. 

DebiSue is doing bitework in Schutzhund with Echo, Jeff, that much I know for sure.  She stated that she is going to see if Echo can get to Schutzhund 3, which, if I'm not mistaken, requires passing the examination in all three phases, Obedience, Protection, and Tracking.

Crys

 And if she does that with her show bloodline dog that says and means a lot for nowadays discussions on show versus work, I think the breeder/owner effort makes a difference.

Ibrahim

Wow Jeff, I think you pretty much covered it all.  I also think us working line people need to go to showline clubs schutzhund competitions and just smoke their butts so bad that the judge could not possibly pass these weak dogs. And then the public can see what real work looks like.

Sport dog is not working dog. Sport is a deteriment to the breed of GSD. It is better then nothing but Nothing runs us against the wall 100miles per hour and Sport 75 miles per hour. In both cases you will die.
 Prager Hans
http://www.alpinek9.com

no, i don't think he pretty much covered it.  i think he is an ass.  he is just another one of those who can't discuss topics without attacking people personally.  debisue started out with a dog that she thought  was not even capable of work and is actively seeking out what types of things the dog can do.  for him to tell her that unless she reaches the highest level of herding or schh, it tells her nothing-----that is just rubbish and nothing but a putdown.  there is way way too much of that shit that goes on.  i get nothing but disgusted when i read criticism like the above - personal attacks.  debi, keep going with your dog & i wish you luck and success and a good time along the way.  you are going to run into a lot of people who will tell you your accomplishments mean nothing and a lot of people who will tell you that your dog "can't."  don't listen to them.  you and your dog will figure it out along the way.  (dogs are the lucky ones.  they can't hear the discouraging things that people spew) real work is the ultimate test for working ability. 
pjp