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by brynjulf on 24 May 2011 - 14:05
GSD guy the cookie thing is a running joke here. There is a local trainer who uses cookies for everything. An example is a dog who is territorial over the bed or couch. They lure the snarling beast off the furniture with a cookie put them in a sit stay and give another cookie. In my house the dog would get flying lessons across the living room and then berated all the way to a crate. Being an insolent child in my house sucks :) EWagner said it best, watch mama with her babies. Discipline is swift and then over.
by GSDguy08 on 24 May 2011 - 14:05
Ewager I can relate to that, I have a litter of puppies right now. The mom of the pups obviously never offers treats, or waits for the positive behavior and then rewards. They persistantly bite on her, and misbehave.....and she bites them, or she growls at them followed with a bite.....and they stop. Same with one of my males, Max, if the puppies annoy him, or try to take his ball.....he growls at them. They get the correction and stop.
Jeff, I don't know much about Mondio other than what I've seen online, still cool about the Sch3 though. What I've seen from so called "trainers" I see at Petco who use positive only......Well, I've seen a lot of the "clients" who have gone through the petco classes, and their dogs are typically very nervous, and the owners lack serious control over their dogs. It's not funny that the dogs are nervous, but they speak of only doing positive only so you won't hurt the bond with your dog, and because it's not abusive....but yet they have extremely nervous dogs who have such little control. I saw one dog who came in there the other day, he was a Cane Corso who was actually above his breed standards in size and height, I noticed they suggested a choke or a prong collar to the owner. I found it funny how they didn't suggest a halti....when I know they suggest those all the time, even though they know most of the dogs pull again when they take them off.
Jeff, I don't know much about Mondio other than what I've seen online, still cool about the Sch3 though. What I've seen from so called "trainers" I see at Petco who use positive only......Well, I've seen a lot of the "clients" who have gone through the petco classes, and their dogs are typically very nervous, and the owners lack serious control over their dogs. It's not funny that the dogs are nervous, but they speak of only doing positive only so you won't hurt the bond with your dog, and because it's not abusive....but yet they have extremely nervous dogs who have such little control. I saw one dog who came in there the other day, he was a Cane Corso who was actually above his breed standards in size and height, I noticed they suggested a choke or a prong collar to the owner. I found it funny how they didn't suggest a halti....when I know they suggest those all the time, even though they know most of the dogs pull again when they take them off.
by Jeff Oehlsen on 24 May 2011 - 19:05
I believe that some portions can be trained with positive, but I think you are looking to condition a response, not train a response. I have found that when the no marker is unpleasant, then I am getting pretty good results. When I come up with the new e-collar that you can leave on the dog and change out batteries externally, and has a grid, not pokey prongs, then I will probably get even better results.
by clee27 on 24 May 2011 - 21:05
Brynjulf- your posts, no matter how serious they are, make me laugh! You're a good writer. I realize I'm not a trainer but Jeff I'm taking your advice and putting my opinion out there anyway. I have never really thought of training in terms of positive and negative in our house. I know the behavior I want my boys to have and so that's what I expect. They are taught what is expected with love and kindness but if I had to roll them up like a booger and flick them, I would. Of course that is figuratively but I have tried to use the same philosophy with my dogs that I used with my daughter, everything is done with love and in their (& my) best interest. In my inexperienced opinion all training that is not abusive is technically positive. I agree that boundaries are a good thing and that each dog is different and may require different training techniques.
by cphudson on 24 May 2011 - 22:05
I agree with you all. Believe it's good to use posiive methods to train a new behavior with puppies & strenghen the bond, also incorpaorate a love for learning / obedience.
But I don't agree with the purely positive trainers that will not accept no other forms of training, it's not fair to the owners or dogs.
I use to foster & do rescue for many years, most of the dogs in the shelers were young adolescent dogs with out training / socialization which develop behavioral issues / became out of control for the owners.
If only the owners had a way to effectively train their dogs which match their dogs temperament, many of dogs lives could have been saved. The dogs I took into to foster were quickly reformed with in 3 weeks just by have clear rules & training. Obviously some that needed behavior modification took a little longer.
My obedience classes would get major of people that were from purely positive type of classes rejects. The owners still couldn't get their dogs to listen as they waved treats in front of their faces.
Many of these dogs just acted like spoiled children, some had aggression issues by their owners lack of disipline.
I do believe positive training is wonderful that is became so wide spread & now prefered training method. But do think some people are taking it way too far with not even wanting to do mild corrections.
I don't like doing with my young puppies, prefer to redirect their negative behaviors. Until they become 5 months old then I begin to add mild corrections to disobienced to well known commands / negative behaviors.
Some behaviors I prefer to have the dogs self correct themselves. Example raiding the trash. If I correct this behavior the dog was still rewarded with scraps from the trash so learned it's great to raid the trash but better do it when my owner isn't around. So I filly the trash can with mouse traps, so many that when one snaps they all do creating a mini explosion in the trash. I then bait the trash with paper towels onto of the mouse traps soaked in beff grease.
Most dogs get so starteled by the mouse traps they never raid the trash again. The list goes on like that to self teach the dog house manners, & a bunch of others for obedience commands as well.
I believe in matching the correction with level of negative behavior. mild disobedience / behaviors gets mild corrections. It's kinder to the dog to get a very strong correction for higher negative behaviors like aggression, instead of many moderate corrections over a span of time. If a correction is effect you normally don't have to repeat it again for a long time. I keep a paddle by my chicken coop as a reminder to all my dogs that any agression with the chickens is only a short paddle spanking away. LOL
But I don't agree with the purely positive trainers that will not accept no other forms of training, it's not fair to the owners or dogs.
I use to foster & do rescue for many years, most of the dogs in the shelers were young adolescent dogs with out training / socialization which develop behavioral issues / became out of control for the owners.
If only the owners had a way to effectively train their dogs which match their dogs temperament, many of dogs lives could have been saved. The dogs I took into to foster were quickly reformed with in 3 weeks just by have clear rules & training. Obviously some that needed behavior modification took a little longer.
My obedience classes would get major of people that were from purely positive type of classes rejects. The owners still couldn't get their dogs to listen as they waved treats in front of their faces.
Many of these dogs just acted like spoiled children, some had aggression issues by their owners lack of disipline.
I do believe positive training is wonderful that is became so wide spread & now prefered training method. But do think some people are taking it way too far with not even wanting to do mild corrections.
I don't like doing with my young puppies, prefer to redirect their negative behaviors. Until they become 5 months old then I begin to add mild corrections to disobienced to well known commands / negative behaviors.
Some behaviors I prefer to have the dogs self correct themselves. Example raiding the trash. If I correct this behavior the dog was still rewarded with scraps from the trash so learned it's great to raid the trash but better do it when my owner isn't around. So I filly the trash can with mouse traps, so many that when one snaps they all do creating a mini explosion in the trash. I then bait the trash with paper towels onto of the mouse traps soaked in beff grease.
Most dogs get so starteled by the mouse traps they never raid the trash again. The list goes on like that to self teach the dog house manners, & a bunch of others for obedience commands as well.
I believe in matching the correction with level of negative behavior. mild disobedience / behaviors gets mild corrections. It's kinder to the dog to get a very strong correction for higher negative behaviors like aggression, instead of many moderate corrections over a span of time. If a correction is effect you normally don't have to repeat it again for a long time. I keep a paddle by my chicken coop as a reminder to all my dogs that any agression with the chickens is only a short paddle spanking away. LOL
by vonissk on 25 May 2011 - 05:05
Good post cphudson.
I would just like to add something about my puppy. " Patting" her on the nose last night must have been the exact correction she needed because tonight when I sat down to eat, she laid down with the big dogs and was relaxed. Once she got up and put her feet on the tabler and I sternly told her uh uh and I am going to get you. When she got down I praised her and gave her her toy and she laid back down with it and never bothered me anymore.............WooHoo making progress.
I would just like to add something about my puppy. " Patting" her on the nose last night must have been the exact correction she needed because tonight when I sat down to eat, she laid down with the big dogs and was relaxed. Once she got up and put her feet on the tabler and I sternly told her uh uh and I am going to get you. When she got down I praised her and gave her her toy and she laid back down with it and never bothered me anymore.............WooHoo making progress.
by Vixen on 25 May 2011 - 11:05
I realise that 'Positive Training' is very popular and greatly defended by those that use it. So respectfully I wish to add that I do feel this manner is denying a dog his/her right to the genetic code they all carry of the pack hierarchy. Dogs understand and recognise (depending on their personal conceived place in the pack system - some stronger some softer) who needs to show respect to them, and who they need to show respect to.
Does anyone guide and educate a child (for instance in learning to behave appropriately at the dining table) by producing sweets at every opportunity when successful, and not discouraging when the child is about to throw the marmalade jar at another child?
I think dogs learn to Perform with positive training. At Competition Shows (UK), it quite common to see dogs perform in the higher classes extremely well, but equally upon completion, the treats or toys need to be available for the dog outside the Ring! Now observe the dogs generally outside of the Rings - very different indeed. :(
I want the relationship with the dog - not the dog with the treat.
However, all this said, I do feel there is a huge difference between 'exercises' and general respect. I guide and encourage a dog who is learning, BUT I am also interacting with that puppy/dog in our daily lives with general good manners and respect. I think this is often the missing link. Respect is hugely important, and exercises follow from there....
Regards,
Vixen
Does anyone guide and educate a child (for instance in learning to behave appropriately at the dining table) by producing sweets at every opportunity when successful, and not discouraging when the child is about to throw the marmalade jar at another child?
I think dogs learn to Perform with positive training. At Competition Shows (UK), it quite common to see dogs perform in the higher classes extremely well, but equally upon completion, the treats or toys need to be available for the dog outside the Ring! Now observe the dogs generally outside of the Rings - very different indeed. :(
I want the relationship with the dog - not the dog with the treat.
However, all this said, I do feel there is a huge difference between 'exercises' and general respect. I guide and encourage a dog who is learning, BUT I am also interacting with that puppy/dog in our daily lives with general good manners and respect. I think this is often the missing link. Respect is hugely important, and exercises follow from there....
Regards,
Vixen
by Dhaines on 25 May 2011 - 16:05
My baby girl is now 41 lbs and big enough to drag me around like a rag doll and has when I didn't use a pinch collar when I take her out. Just in the last couple days, I have been able to just use the regular nylon collar. It's a learning process and she's finally got it, so it's not necessary to always use punishment, but sometimes necessary to use some.
I use treats and praise at home, but at obedience school it is strictly praise and treats after class. My trainer explained to me that until you get voice control their safety is what is most important and your not always going to have a hot dog in your pocket so your dog will listen to you. But physical punishment such as hitting or kicking is never a good idea, I think it just teaches them to be fearful and scared dogs can attack.
I use treats and praise at home, but at obedience school it is strictly praise and treats after class. My trainer explained to me that until you get voice control their safety is what is most important and your not always going to have a hot dog in your pocket so your dog will listen to you. But physical punishment such as hitting or kicking is never a good idea, I think it just teaches them to be fearful and scared dogs can attack.
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