Positive training question - Page 2

Sting

Excellent comment, however how many people understand? A Correction needs to last only until compliance is obtained and then immediately stopped. Timing is crucial

How many times have you seen a person tell their dog to sit when it has already done so? 

Or tell their dog to Search when it is clearly still searching?

Or give a command when they are not in a position to enforce the command?

Both Positive/Negative reinforcement for Detection work is required to achive results

I actually do understand what he is saying.  It is an interesting thought I haven't ever considered before. And I agree.

But the person I am discussing with is specifically stating NO physical corrections punishment are used.
I am wondering if there are Police, Protection or Schutzhund dogs that are trained with no physical corrections.
For example rewarding good behavior, ignoring the bad.
 

For bite work you must have Negative/Corrective whatever you want to call it ....physical corrections.

Otherwise you, or somone else is going to get hurt and you have not Trained a dog, you created an uncontrollable mutt.

Handler aggression is not to be allowed either.

JMO

In my style of training the actual bite and the agitator themselves IS the reward or positive reinforcement to the dog as the work itself is the reward. 

Therefore I could easily spend hours, days, weeks, months and years doing exclusively that if i wanted to. 

And yes the dog would be 100% trained in bite work, i.e. the dog would bite and work at it with enthusiasm. 

The catch comes when you ask if the dog is trained to ignore distractions during that bite work.  And remember ignoring a distraction is really what is happening during "out" work.  "Out" is not a command similar to "listen to the handler" but rather has more in common with "leave it". 

So again it's veryy similar to what I said about obedience training and problem behavior solving except now the concepts are applied to bite work in stead.

Let me ask this, why are you asking this question?  Are you not wanting to correct your dog?  Have you done so in the past and found it to be unenjoyable?

sting369 wrote:
"Positive reinforcement is for obedience training.
Negative reinforcement is for stopping unwanted behavior and distraction proofing."

Could you give me some examples of negative reinforcement please.  I understand what positive punishment (or correction) is but little understanding of what negative reinforcement is all about.  The only example I think relates to the latter is when using an E-collar.  But then again I may be wrong? Thanks.

there is no purely positive training/ or negative ...  .. with all children and animals it is in the nature to question , challenge , rebel , protest, not to pay heed ....  .etc. So without giving a whole seminar here ... there lies the Ying and the Yang sort to speak ...BOTH ARE NEEDED ...  but you should relaize that there are more than two dimensions , postive / negative....they are not in themselves isolated ... ::: there exist a POSITVE positive , A POSITVE negative  , a NEGATIVE negative and  last a NEGATIVE positive. an example of a positve-negative  would be someone griving a car , seeing a negative stimulus/ but yet positive [ a red light is pleasant/ pleasing].  , as a result one stop to avoid an accidnet. a negative -negative would be an order to have a behavior cease and end you shock the hell out of the dog .. each stimulus/ response falls into one of the four categories.  ... in order to communicate in life ,  we are always  using one of the four to communicate[ amoungst ourselves as people that is]... even reading  this post .. is a positive - positive stimulus /response scenario. again .. in order to communicate to the dog [ and that is basically training ] we use one combination .. what makes a good trainer /training is to know which to use to commincate[ or enforce yourself]  in the most loving way , as to enhanmce the relationship yet maintain authority and execution of responsibilites [tasks]. so .. what i tell people i work with .. training is teaching /enforcing-- knowing when to hold 'em and when to fold 'em !!

" In my style of training the actual bite and the agitator themselves IS the reward or positive reinforcement to the dog as the work itself is the reward.

Therefore I could easily spend hours, days, weeks, months and years doing exclusively that if i wanted to.

And yes the dog would be 100% trained in bite work, i.e. the dog would bite and work at it with enthusiasm.

The catch comes when you ask if the dog is trained to ignore distractions during that bite work. And remember ignoring a distraction is really what is happening during "out" work. "Out" is not a command similar to "listen to the handler" but rather has more in common with "leave it". "

And that is where I am having a hard time understanding how one trains a dog with no corrections. 

"Let me ask this, why are you asking this question? Are you not wanting to correct your dog? Have you done so in the past and found it to be unenjoyable?"

No that isn't it at all.  It was a comment made by another person and I wanted to know if there was any validity to it.  I did not believe that there was, but I am always interested in learning.  I wondered how one achieves this type of training with no corrections for exactly the reason you are stating.  When the bite becomes the reward, and there is no consequence for not releasing or for biting when you choose, how do you fix that with no corrections?  I know my dog isn't going to "out" off a bite for a treat alone.  

I have no Schutzhund clubs near me.  I am familiar with how the Police department here and in several other places in the country train, I know of none that train completely free of corrections.  So I thought I would ask here.

poisedon, my definitions or wording I use are maybe different than yours but likely we are talking about the same thing.  I try to keep things simple. 

My definition of positive reinforcement is simply any training tool or concept that offers no pain, discomfort, correction, or experience the dog may percieve as a negative experience.   it could include anything from treats, to clickers, to petting, to verbal praise, to the work itself, and all kinds of other things.

My definition of negative reinforcement is simply any form of physical correction, pain, discomfort, or adversive that has been used by trainers and could include anything from loud sounds, correction collars, scoldings, verbal reprimands, e-collars, throw chains and on and on.

It should be pointed out I don't use any of this vocabulary though in my own private life or with my self, I merely use it on chat forums to try and easily convey to others what I am trying to get across.  Due to the fact so many people have different vocabularies and definitions and what have you though this doesn't always work well and ends up causing more confusion. 

novarobin, I guess the ultimate way to find out is to try it yourself and see what happens.  I do know of one person that existed at one time who gradually did away with all corrections because they did not want the dog to ever be tentative about doing anything in life.  Keep in mind that all training amounts to a conditioning process in the dogs mind, and even corrections ultimately only work due to enough repetitions of them which creates new habits.  Since dogs are creatures of habit if one was to use only positive reinforcement during bite work including for distraction and out training then you would need to actually rely on "repetition" as your ace up your sleeve.  It would not actually  be the "positive reinforcement" that would train the dog, it would actually be the several thousand reptitions you do that would get the result. 

Personally I'd go as far as to say I no longer use either positive reinforcement nor corrections to train my dogs in any facet of work, and that I rely solely on repetition and the dog is then not 'trained' but rather simply "understands". 

I only talk about positive and negative reinforcement at all because I find those are the words most people on forums understand and is what they use.  My opinion though is that those words and concepts and beliefs are actually the very thing holding all trainers world wide back from achieving what they could really be achieving.

See that confuses me because I think of positive/negative and reinforcement/punishment as defined by operant conditions.  That is, positive meaning added, negative meaning taken away, not good and bad.  Punishment as in likely to cause the behavior not to be repeated, and reinforcement likely to cause the behavior to be repeated. 

I do not have ability to try it.  I have no local clubs to train with.  Plus at this point I have three dogs, it is not possible to add a 4th to train.  And part of my question is how successful is this method. Part of measurement of success would be titles, or high level of competition, neither of which I could attain.