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by k9sar on 03 October 2010 - 16:10
FEMA training is geared towards rescue in collapsed structures. In this search and rescue venue you are looking for any number of victims. FEMA /SUSAR (federal and state ) urban search and rescue teams respond to situations such as tornadoes, hurricanes, building collapses, gas explosions.
This relates to the FEMA question. I hope this brings clarity to some
This relates to the FEMA question. I hope this brings clarity to some
by Prager on 03 October 2010 - 18:10
I understand all the intricacies of S&R training. Tracking, trailing, air scenting. Some touched on my question. I will rewrite them here.
1. I have heard that organizations like FEMA insists on separate Certifications of tracking/trailing OR air scenting. And that if the dog is certified in one then he can not certify in the other.
2. If that is the truth then what would be the benefit of that.
3. Why not to certify dogs in fining people period?
I am not active any more but I am experienced S&R trainer and was on several searches when I have lived in Wyo.
I was personally involved in training of tens of S&R dogs.I have started first independent none profit org in state of Wyoming in early 80ties in Teton county. That was done with support of local Sheriff dept under Sheriff Roger Milward and with help of deputy Tracy Hanson. S&R was the reason I have rekindled my love to GSD after I got into USA. ( Thus the name of my kennel is Alpine Safety K9 International recently shortened to AlpineK9).
Even so I have this experience I am baffled by such policies.
I personally do not think that there is any benefit what so ever and that it is a detriment to a S&R dog team to separate certifications for air scent and for tracking / trailing.
I believe that the dog should find a person by all means possible.
Prager Hans
http://www.alpinek9.com
P.S. No that is not me on the picture above but it is one of my S&R dogs.
I am much better looking:))))))))))))))!
1. I have heard that organizations like FEMA insists on separate Certifications of tracking/trailing OR air scenting. And that if the dog is certified in one then he can not certify in the other.
2. If that is the truth then what would be the benefit of that.
3. Why not to certify dogs in fining people period?
I am not active any more but I am experienced S&R trainer and was on several searches when I have lived in Wyo.
I was personally involved in training of tens of S&R dogs.I have started first independent none profit org in state of Wyoming in early 80ties in Teton county. That was done with support of local Sheriff dept under Sheriff Roger Milward and with help of deputy Tracy Hanson. S&R was the reason I have rekindled my love to GSD after I got into USA. ( Thus the name of my kennel is Alpine Safety K9 International recently shortened to AlpineK9).
Even so I have this experience I am baffled by such policies.
I personally do not think that there is any benefit what so ever and that it is a detriment to a S&R dog team to separate certifications for air scent and for tracking / trailing.
I believe that the dog should find a person by all means possible.
Prager Hans
http://www.alpinek9.com
P.S. No that is not me on the picture above but it is one of my S&R dogs.
I am much better looking:))))))))))))))!
by cphudson on 03 October 2010 - 22:10
Hi Hans, what I was trying to say before is you can train dogs for both air scenting & trailing. They use to be part of the certification process & not separated. I think they should not be a different certification either.
But after 9-11 more people wanted to do SAR & more people volunteer as dog + handler teams.
Air scenting is the fastest to get certified in SAR, especially if you don't start the dogs on trailing / tracking first.
Many old timers believe they separated the certifications in order to have more people able to get involved & certified in SAR. Before it took a average of 2 years to certify a really good dog in SAR. Back then they would learn both trailing & air scenting at the same time. I'm sure that is how you trained in the past.
I'm doing SAR work again with my new k9 partner, Recka. I was shocked how much has changed.
There are dogs working now that never would have certified before.
All dogs are started on air scenting training first in SAR. No one adds in trailing / tracking, as basics because the training will take longer. Once a dog learns air scenting very well, it is difficult to teach them to trail / track.
Teams need all members to be active ready & certified, so they want to train them faster than before.
It comes down to teams wanting to be the ones called first & get the most $ from government.
The best ways to get both is to have all members certified, the more certifications the better it looks.
Plus I don't think as many people would be able to do SAR if they had to train for dual purpose dogs right off the bat. There would be more disappointed people that could have been good at SAR but just didn't have the extra time for the additional training.
I still trained my dog to track for SCH before she started SAR air scenting work. If your dog knows how to track it's very easy to switch them over to trailing. She will have to get certified in air scenting 1st then, trailing 2nd even though she knows both. I think it's best to train dogs for both & let them use all their abilities to find a lost person.
If we have access to a lost person's scent article, then why not send out the dog to find the person by trailing, & if the dog switches to air scenting as the scent gets stronger in the air, why does that matter?
I really don't know exactly why it's changed, but don't like the change in SAR.
As long as the lost person is found as effectual as you can to the safety of everyone, I don't think it should matter.
I work more directly with police & fire departments, they do not have any issues having a dog train in both at the same time. But my local SAR teams know do, even the one I use to train with years ago that did just that.
The reasons above is what they told me.
But after 9-11 more people wanted to do SAR & more people volunteer as dog + handler teams.
Air scenting is the fastest to get certified in SAR, especially if you don't start the dogs on trailing / tracking first.
Many old timers believe they separated the certifications in order to have more people able to get involved & certified in SAR. Before it took a average of 2 years to certify a really good dog in SAR. Back then they would learn both trailing & air scenting at the same time. I'm sure that is how you trained in the past.
I'm doing SAR work again with my new k9 partner, Recka. I was shocked how much has changed.
There are dogs working now that never would have certified before.
All dogs are started on air scenting training first in SAR. No one adds in trailing / tracking, as basics because the training will take longer. Once a dog learns air scenting very well, it is difficult to teach them to trail / track.
Teams need all members to be active ready & certified, so they want to train them faster than before.
It comes down to teams wanting to be the ones called first & get the most $ from government.
The best ways to get both is to have all members certified, the more certifications the better it looks.
Plus I don't think as many people would be able to do SAR if they had to train for dual purpose dogs right off the bat. There would be more disappointed people that could have been good at SAR but just didn't have the extra time for the additional training.
I still trained my dog to track for SCH before she started SAR air scenting work. If your dog knows how to track it's very easy to switch them over to trailing. She will have to get certified in air scenting 1st then, trailing 2nd even though she knows both. I think it's best to train dogs for both & let them use all their abilities to find a lost person.
If we have access to a lost person's scent article, then why not send out the dog to find the person by trailing, & if the dog switches to air scenting as the scent gets stronger in the air, why does that matter?
I really don't know exactly why it's changed, but don't like the change in SAR.
As long as the lost person is found as effectual as you can to the safety of everyone, I don't think it should matter.
I work more directly with police & fire departments, they do not have any issues having a dog train in both at the same time. But my local SAR teams know do, even the one I use to train with years ago that did just that.
The reasons above is what they told me.
by Prager on 07 October 2010 - 16:10
cphudson thanks for excellent (!!!) explanation.
OK . I should have known better. It is about money and fast gratification. I am getting old.
Prager Hans
http://www.alpinek9.com
OK . I should have known better. It is about money and fast gratification. I am getting old.
Prager Hans
http://www.alpinek9.com
by jmopaso on 07 October 2010 - 21:10
by jmopaso on 07 October 2010 - 21:10
Sorry for the blank post above. I got up and the cat walked over the computer.
I did really want to say that this is a very informative thread. Thank you very much for all the great info.
I did really want to say that this is a very informative thread. Thank you very much for all the great info.
by beetree on 07 October 2010 - 23:10
I agree, excellent information. I love it when I learn new stuff like this! I never knew what were the specific differences. Thanks for sharing.
One has to have lots of respect for people and the dogs who do this work. 
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