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by BlackthornGSD on 09 May 2010 - 15:05
This dog?
[picture removed at request of owner]
If he's 110 pounds, he's probably 15 pounds overweight. He's got a very a straight shoulder.
[picture removed at request of owner]
If he's 110 pounds, he's probably 15 pounds overweight. He's got a very a straight shoulder.
by Royal1 on 09 May 2010 - 16:05
straight shoulder ? Is it bad or good ?
by Shtal on 09 May 2010 - 17:05
He is approx ~29.5 inch tall at the shoulder and he will be 16 months on the 13th of this month, could you be 100% sure he is 15 pounds overweight, I actually took advice from steve1 about keeping dog not overweight.
And when I said he is nearly 110 pounds mark; to be more accurate he is 108 pounds after putting him on scale!
And when I said he is nearly 110 pounds mark; to be more accurate he is 108 pounds after putting him on scale!
by BlackthornGSD on 09 May 2010 - 18:05
Can you feel his ribs putting your hand on his side?
by Shtal on 09 May 2010 - 19:05
I have to try :)
Edit: I did touch it and I could feel his individual ribs easy, so I don't know if their is a special way to identify!
Edit: I did touch it and I could feel his individual ribs easy, so I don't know if their is a special way to identify!
by BlackthornGSD on 09 May 2010 - 22:05
He has that "sleek" look to him in the lying down picture--where a dog is overweight but in a way that doesn't look obviously so. You should be able to see his loin muscles and shoulders and the last rib or two in movement. Able to easily feel ribs but not see them when he is standing still.
At 29.5 inches, 100 pounds is not unreasonable. My first GSD was a mostly American-line male who was 29" and at working weight (when he got his SchH3) he was 92 pounds. However, he was a tall, lean-muscled dog and could have bulked up more to weigh closer to 100 pounds if he'd been a different body type.
He kinda made the 1 meter jump look small:
At 29.5 inches, 100 pounds is not unreasonable. My first GSD was a mostly American-line male who was 29" and at working weight (when he got his SchH3) he was 92 pounds. However, he was a tall, lean-muscled dog and could have bulked up more to weigh closer to 100 pounds if he'd been a different body type.
He kinda made the 1 meter jump look small:
by BlackthornGSD on 09 May 2010 - 22:05
To go back to the original topic, Shtal's dog has moderate length of upper arm and the angle of the shoulder is a bit open or "straight"--so it's not ideal, but nor is it a terrible shoulder.
Here's one of my dogs as a youngster--working lines, Belgian and West German:
You can see that his upper arm (from elbow to point of shoulder) is short, making his shoulder angle more open than is ideal, causing him to have a "straight" shoulder. One way of seeing this is that his front legs are not out in front of his body, but they are still in front of his withers--not directly underneath them. Sometimes in pictures you see a dog who is deliberately pushed forward in a stack or leaning strongly forward, this will often improve the *look* of the dog's shoulder by putting his withers over his legs, even if the shoulder angle is not good--that's one reason why judging a dog based on a picture is not always going to be an accurate assessment of the dog.
The American show lines almost always have good length of upper arm--this is what gives such good forereach. But they do not always have great angulation. If the length of upper arm is good but the angle is too open (as in the case of the AKC champion that Rik posted), you end up with a dog with higher-seeming withers and good forereach, but the foreward leg will be high in the air on full extension. You see this in the European lines, too, but not as often.
The European working bloodlines consistently have short upper arms and short croups. I think that selecting for a great-performing schutzhund dog also inadvertently selects for these comformation features. They tend to be more of a sprinter body type, with quick twitch muscling for fast reactions and the ability to reach high speeds quickly. (Think Quarter Horse body type.) Almost universally, the best-looking and top-performing working-line dogs still have somewhat short upper arms and short croups. So, when selecting for the BEST comformation for schutzhund, you are at least to some degree, selecting against the GSD Standard, which calls for ground-eating movement, and longer muscling than is ideal for the quick-twitch sport of schutzhund.
Christine
Here's one of my dogs as a youngster--working lines, Belgian and West German:
You can see that his upper arm (from elbow to point of shoulder) is short, making his shoulder angle more open than is ideal, causing him to have a "straight" shoulder. One way of seeing this is that his front legs are not out in front of his body, but they are still in front of his withers--not directly underneath them. Sometimes in pictures you see a dog who is deliberately pushed forward in a stack or leaning strongly forward, this will often improve the *look* of the dog's shoulder by putting his withers over his legs, even if the shoulder angle is not good--that's one reason why judging a dog based on a picture is not always going to be an accurate assessment of the dog.
The American show lines almost always have good length of upper arm--this is what gives such good forereach. But they do not always have great angulation. If the length of upper arm is good but the angle is too open (as in the case of the AKC champion that Rik posted), you end up with a dog with higher-seeming withers and good forereach, but the foreward leg will be high in the air on full extension. You see this in the European lines, too, but not as often.
The European working bloodlines consistently have short upper arms and short croups. I think that selecting for a great-performing schutzhund dog also inadvertently selects for these comformation features. They tend to be more of a sprinter body type, with quick twitch muscling for fast reactions and the ability to reach high speeds quickly. (Think Quarter Horse body type.) Almost universally, the best-looking and top-performing working-line dogs still have somewhat short upper arms and short croups. So, when selecting for the BEST comformation for schutzhund, you are at least to some degree, selecting against the GSD Standard, which calls for ground-eating movement, and longer muscling than is ideal for the quick-twitch sport of schutzhund.
Christine
by Royal1 on 09 May 2010 - 23:05
BlackthornGSD - Thank you for clearing things up..........
Shtal's video clip www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/forum/42569.html he posted, this dog looks good to me.
Shtal's video clip www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/forum/42569.html he posted, this dog looks good to me.
by Rik on 09 May 2010 - 23:05
A lifting front is often caused by a dog with "more" rear than front. In order for the rear to complete it's stroke, the front has to remain in the air for a fraction longer. There can be other causes also.
In general, I have found front extension, rather than correct shoulder construction, to be the goal of many, not all, American Show Shepherd breeders. The German show people seem to put quite a bit of emphasis on shoulder and get just as good extension. My dog also, so I'm not stealing pictures.
In general, I have found front extension, rather than correct shoulder construction, to be the goal of many, not all, American Show Shepherd breeders. The German show people seem to put quite a bit of emphasis on shoulder and get just as good extension. My dog also, so I'm not stealing pictures.
by BlackthornGSD on 10 May 2010 - 01:05
I'm not going to download an 80 mb video--maybe he could put it on Youtube?
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