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by Oskar1 on 07 February 2010 - 10:02
Kerschberger,
with all due respect, pretty pathetic what you write, or, and I feell sorry then, from someone who was not satisfied in the past.
Aparently you also dont know how paperwork is handelt in Germany, as a breeder I would like to ship the papers with the pup, but due to regulations of the SV this is plain simply not possible. To shed some light on this procedure :
1. Pup cannot be tatooed (now, since 1/2010 chipped) before the age of 50 days, pup also has to have 1st set of shots done before it gets chipped.
2. 50 days = 7 weeks, this means, at the time of the pups beeing chipped, the breeder, the breedwarden and the Tatoo (now chip guy have to be present.. This is the time that the pups actually get their identity. The breeder completes his "Wurfmeldeschein" (Litter application form), the chip guy completes his forms, the breedwarden signs the Wurfmeldeschein, that the process did follow set standarts by the SV.
3. the breeder & chip guy send in their paperwork to the SV. (It can happen that the chip guy sends them in a week later, or the breeder ....)
4. The SV checks, when ALL paperwork is there, that every rule there is was followed, rechecks the parents etc.....this can take up to 4 weeks. After this the SV will send the paperwork (pedigree) back to the breeder, because the breeder has to sign on the first page, that everything in the pedigree is right. Now the breeder can send you the paperwork.
So, it shows pretty clearly, the breeder cannot apply for the paperwork earlier than 7-8 weeks after the birth of the puppys, so in turn he cannot supply you with such. Nothing to blame the breeder for, no secrets or room for conspiricy either.
I find it hard to believe that you make it sound as such in your post, without knowing the facts.
Secondly, most breeder friends that I have, are handling buyers the same way I do : If I want to keep a pup out of my own litter, I will be the first to choose. After that, it goes strictly by the motto ; First come, first served. Of course, now you will say, well these pups can be easily switched, yup they could. This is where you will have to have some trust. I always mark my puppys, and if one is spoken for, he is of the market, no matter how many peopel are asking me for him. This would be just the same as in the US. And to think that you will have a choice which puppy to pick out of a quality breeding at the age of 8 weeks - that must be a joke - most of my pups are spoken for at age 3 weeks, many time they are spoken for before they are even born.
You are right, you will have no garantees, well, we read it all the time on here, how buyers get treated, even if they have this "golden " garantee. I for my part, as a breeder, try to be reasonable, and do offer my help. But I also do aspect a buyer to be reasonable, I find it rather hard to put a garantee on a living creature. As a grown person, I truely believe that ther is always a way to figure things out.
Ulli
with all due respect, pretty pathetic what you write, or, and I feell sorry then, from someone who was not satisfied in the past.
Aparently you also dont know how paperwork is handelt in Germany, as a breeder I would like to ship the papers with the pup, but due to regulations of the SV this is plain simply not possible. To shed some light on this procedure :
1. Pup cannot be tatooed (now, since 1/2010 chipped) before the age of 50 days, pup also has to have 1st set of shots done before it gets chipped.
2. 50 days = 7 weeks, this means, at the time of the pups beeing chipped, the breeder, the breedwarden and the Tatoo (now chip guy have to be present.. This is the time that the pups actually get their identity. The breeder completes his "Wurfmeldeschein" (Litter application form), the chip guy completes his forms, the breedwarden signs the Wurfmeldeschein, that the process did follow set standarts by the SV.
3. the breeder & chip guy send in their paperwork to the SV. (It can happen that the chip guy sends them in a week later, or the breeder ....)
4. The SV checks, when ALL paperwork is there, that every rule there is was followed, rechecks the parents etc.....this can take up to 4 weeks. After this the SV will send the paperwork (pedigree) back to the breeder, because the breeder has to sign on the first page, that everything in the pedigree is right. Now the breeder can send you the paperwork.
So, it shows pretty clearly, the breeder cannot apply for the paperwork earlier than 7-8 weeks after the birth of the puppys, so in turn he cannot supply you with such. Nothing to blame the breeder for, no secrets or room for conspiricy either.
I find it hard to believe that you make it sound as such in your post, without knowing the facts.
Secondly, most breeder friends that I have, are handling buyers the same way I do : If I want to keep a pup out of my own litter, I will be the first to choose. After that, it goes strictly by the motto ; First come, first served. Of course, now you will say, well these pups can be easily switched, yup they could. This is where you will have to have some trust. I always mark my puppys, and if one is spoken for, he is of the market, no matter how many peopel are asking me for him. This would be just the same as in the US. And to think that you will have a choice which puppy to pick out of a quality breeding at the age of 8 weeks - that must be a joke - most of my pups are spoken for at age 3 weeks, many time they are spoken for before they are even born.
You are right, you will have no garantees, well, we read it all the time on here, how buyers get treated, even if they have this "golden " garantee. I for my part, as a breeder, try to be reasonable, and do offer my help. But I also do aspect a buyer to be reasonable, I find it rather hard to put a garantee on a living creature. As a grown person, I truely believe that ther is always a way to figure things out.
Ulli
by Kerschberger on 07 February 2010 - 23:02
I have been breeding and importing for enough years, starting with some very good imports. THE advantage was clearly the language.
I have even received pink papers for TWO dogs which did not have them, I went through the SV mill back and forth and without tenacity would not have endured. Each time took ONE YEAR. Its easier for me to steal your identity than to get pink papers from the SV after they've been deemed lost, or reported stolen. I know about the pink paper procedure. I just purchased two pups from an outstanding bloodline combination which will arrive here next month some time. I know what I'm getting into. However, many pup importers have been taken because of their impulsiveness. The tattoo better match those pups' ear tattoo. When not, good luck. Many owners do not know how to read the all German Pink paper. And probably don't even compare the tattoo with the pups inner ear tattoo. Pink papers do take quite long to arrive.
To quote you " And to think that you will have a choice which puppy to pick out of a quality breeding at the age of 8 weeks - that must be a joke - most of my pups are spoken for at age 3 weeks, many time they are spoken for before they are even born."
This simply points that YOU do not know much about breeding. NO one in their right mind chooses a pup at any earlier age than
six weeks. A pup is just a ball of fluff until then. IF you have an eye for conformation, you may be so lucky to see certain aspects at six weeks, but most do not. In my case, my buyer does not choose, I DO. I match temperament with suitability to the future families' life style. Never gone wrong. I'm not going to educate you here, I spoke my mind in the other post.
However, to state your pups are sold before they are born. IN GERMANY, yeah right. What's your kennel name? vom SMT. I don't mean to insult you, however, you are trying to put me in my place, hence, off you go...
No disrespect intended ,however, this will sound blunt, with one brood bitch that is not hard to accomplish ie: Anyway, viel Erfolg im Zukunft.
I have even received pink papers for TWO dogs which did not have them, I went through the SV mill back and forth and without tenacity would not have endured. Each time took ONE YEAR. Its easier for me to steal your identity than to get pink papers from the SV after they've been deemed lost, or reported stolen. I know about the pink paper procedure. I just purchased two pups from an outstanding bloodline combination which will arrive here next month some time. I know what I'm getting into. However, many pup importers have been taken because of their impulsiveness. The tattoo better match those pups' ear tattoo. When not, good luck. Many owners do not know how to read the all German Pink paper. And probably don't even compare the tattoo with the pups inner ear tattoo. Pink papers do take quite long to arrive.
To quote you " And to think that you will have a choice which puppy to pick out of a quality breeding at the age of 8 weeks - that must be a joke - most of my pups are spoken for at age 3 weeks, many time they are spoken for before they are even born."
This simply points that YOU do not know much about breeding. NO one in their right mind chooses a pup at any earlier age than
six weeks. A pup is just a ball of fluff until then. IF you have an eye for conformation, you may be so lucky to see certain aspects at six weeks, but most do not. In my case, my buyer does not choose, I DO. I match temperament with suitability to the future families' life style. Never gone wrong. I'm not going to educate you here, I spoke my mind in the other post.
However, to state your pups are sold before they are born. IN GERMANY, yeah right. What's your kennel name? vom SMT. I don't mean to insult you, however, you are trying to put me in my place, hence, off you go...
No disrespect intended ,however, this will sound blunt, with one brood bitch that is not hard to accomplish ie: Anyway, viel Erfolg im Zukunft.
by Oskar1 on 08 February 2010 - 08:02
Kerschberger,
well, maybe your problems in the past are related to the fact that you, at least partly, do not import yourself. Many things do go a lot smoother if you just deal with one person than more. A dealer here in Germany buys from a breeder, an Importer in the US buys from that dealer, and at the end you buy from that Importer. Esspecially with pups, since now 3 partys await the arrival of the papers, a lot of stuff can happen during that time ! The breeder waits 3-4 weeks to get the papers from the SV, the dealer waits again 2 weeks to get them from the breeder, the Importer waits annother 2 weeks to get them from the dealer (maybe the Importer did not pay the full amount that was agreed upon, now the dealer holds back the paperwork ?) and you, the buyer will be lucky if they ever make it to you ! And you, at the end of that line will never know the truth. But this is most certainly not the breeders fault to beginn with.( it gets even more difficult, if all the owner changes are not correctly done and reported to the SV ! If they are not, it can get difficult really quick, when the last owner(buyer) needs any paperwork from the SV) I agree, once the papers are lost, it gets difficult and pricy. Just went through that with a "Bescheinigung" that did get lost in the mail. The reason why the SV keeps such a strikt rigiment (?) on their procedure is simply to make it as hard as possible for the crooks to falsify a dogs Identity, I believe this to be of benefit for the buyer.
And , hey, what do I know about breeding, I agree with you. I only had 5 litters so far, and guess what, it did happen allready with 2 of my litters, that over 50% were spoken for and 50% payed for before they were even born. I, myself found that very odd, but the ones INSISTING on doing so, were buyers from overseas or US citizens staitioned here. Something I really did not like to do, but they insisted. Furthermore, you know it, as well as it is known by any GSD fancier, how the conformation and soundness of any given pup will be when they are grown up, will only be known when they are grown. Unless, you have a pretty good crystal ball. Too many factors play a role in this game. But we certainly can better the odds in our favour by selecting puppys out of thought through breedings.
By any means, it was NOT my intension to offend you, what ticked me off, was, that your post sounded like you blaimed the breeder for not beeing able to hand you the paperwork of an 8 week old pup. It is plain simply not possible. (See my post above, also not ment to lecture you, but to shed some light onto the procedure).
As to wether or not you find my kennel attractive or knowlegible, or my personal experience good enough for your needs, I leave that up to you. It is good enough for me, it was good enough for the peopel that bought a dog from me and I am quite happy with the things the way they are. I was raised around GSD's, owned GSD's for most part of my life. Yup, you are right, I only started breeding in 2004/2005, I even thought it to be a good idear to become a breedwarden before starting breeding, but I guess you are right, what do I know.
Maybe, this is also related to the language barrier, I am told sometimes that my english is pretty harsh, if that is the case, I do apologize.
Auch Ihnen, alles Gute für die Zukunft und viel Glück & Freude mit den 2 Welpen.
Ulli
well, maybe your problems in the past are related to the fact that you, at least partly, do not import yourself. Many things do go a lot smoother if you just deal with one person than more. A dealer here in Germany buys from a breeder, an Importer in the US buys from that dealer, and at the end you buy from that Importer. Esspecially with pups, since now 3 partys await the arrival of the papers, a lot of stuff can happen during that time ! The breeder waits 3-4 weeks to get the papers from the SV, the dealer waits again 2 weeks to get them from the breeder, the Importer waits annother 2 weeks to get them from the dealer (maybe the Importer did not pay the full amount that was agreed upon, now the dealer holds back the paperwork ?) and you, the buyer will be lucky if they ever make it to you ! And you, at the end of that line will never know the truth. But this is most certainly not the breeders fault to beginn with.( it gets even more difficult, if all the owner changes are not correctly done and reported to the SV ! If they are not, it can get difficult really quick, when the last owner(buyer) needs any paperwork from the SV) I agree, once the papers are lost, it gets difficult and pricy. Just went through that with a "Bescheinigung" that did get lost in the mail. The reason why the SV keeps such a strikt rigiment (?) on their procedure is simply to make it as hard as possible for the crooks to falsify a dogs Identity, I believe this to be of benefit for the buyer.
And , hey, what do I know about breeding, I agree with you. I only had 5 litters so far, and guess what, it did happen allready with 2 of my litters, that over 50% were spoken for and 50% payed for before they were even born. I, myself found that very odd, but the ones INSISTING on doing so, were buyers from overseas or US citizens staitioned here. Something I really did not like to do, but they insisted. Furthermore, you know it, as well as it is known by any GSD fancier, how the conformation and soundness of any given pup will be when they are grown up, will only be known when they are grown. Unless, you have a pretty good crystal ball. Too many factors play a role in this game. But we certainly can better the odds in our favour by selecting puppys out of thought through breedings.
By any means, it was NOT my intension to offend you, what ticked me off, was, that your post sounded like you blaimed the breeder for not beeing able to hand you the paperwork of an 8 week old pup. It is plain simply not possible. (See my post above, also not ment to lecture you, but to shed some light onto the procedure).
As to wether or not you find my kennel attractive or knowlegible, or my personal experience good enough for your needs, I leave that up to you. It is good enough for me, it was good enough for the peopel that bought a dog from me and I am quite happy with the things the way they are. I was raised around GSD's, owned GSD's for most part of my life. Yup, you are right, I only started breeding in 2004/2005, I even thought it to be a good idear to become a breedwarden before starting breeding, but I guess you are right, what do I know.
Maybe, this is also related to the language barrier, I am told sometimes that my english is pretty harsh, if that is the case, I do apologize.
Auch Ihnen, alles Gute für die Zukunft und viel Glück & Freude mit den 2 Welpen.
Ulli
by VomRuiz on 08 February 2010 - 09:02
Posted by Ulli:
"Secondly, most breeder friends that I have, are handling buyers the same way I do : If I want to keep a pup out of my own litter, I will be the first to choose. After that, it goes strictly by the motto ; First come, first served. Of course, now you will say, well these pups can be easily switched, yup they could. This is where you will have to have some trust. I always mark my puppys, and if one is spoken for, he is of the market, no matter how many peopel are asking me for him. "
Absolutely a matter of getting to KNOW and TRUST the out-of-country breeder BEFORE buying your puppy! I could not agree more with that above statement.
I reserved a female puppy from my breeder before they were born. I was the first to inquire about one as soon as I had found out the mating had taken place. Only one female was born.
There were friends of the breeder and the breeder himself who wanted a female from this breeding.
Every single person who went in person to the breeder's kennel with cash in hand, and saw the litter chose my puppy first since she was acting great even at 6-8 weeks old. Even before I sent my deposit the breeder held my puppy for me.
Trust goes both ways...
My breeder still sent me the only female. Even the tattooer and vet told the breeder he was crazy for parting with her. The breeder still teases me about "rubbing it in" when I send him pictures and updates on her training progression.
If you form a good relationship with a kennel before purchasing a dog then you will have nothing to complain about later.
Stacy
"Secondly, most breeder friends that I have, are handling buyers the same way I do : If I want to keep a pup out of my own litter, I will be the first to choose. After that, it goes strictly by the motto ; First come, first served. Of course, now you will say, well these pups can be easily switched, yup they could. This is where you will have to have some trust. I always mark my puppys, and if one is spoken for, he is of the market, no matter how many peopel are asking me for him. "
Absolutely a matter of getting to KNOW and TRUST the out-of-country breeder BEFORE buying your puppy! I could not agree more with that above statement.
I reserved a female puppy from my breeder before they were born. I was the first to inquire about one as soon as I had found out the mating had taken place. Only one female was born.
There were friends of the breeder and the breeder himself who wanted a female from this breeding.
Every single person who went in person to the breeder's kennel with cash in hand, and saw the litter chose my puppy first since she was acting great even at 6-8 weeks old. Even before I sent my deposit the breeder held my puppy for me.
Trust goes both ways...
My breeder still sent me the only female. Even the tattooer and vet told the breeder he was crazy for parting with her. The breeder still teases me about "rubbing it in" when I send him pictures and updates on her training progression.
If you form a good relationship with a kennel before purchasing a dog then you will have nothing to complain about later.
Stacy
by steve1 on 08 February 2010 - 09:02
As an Englishman living in Belgium and i own only Dogs bred in Belgium i too am amazed at the price of a Pup some of the Breeders in the USA ask for a working line Pup. As i said on another thread you can buy from Belgium, Pups which are from Proven Working Line Parents Titled KKL1 or 2 DNA and Hips and Elbow scored for generations Plus the working titles go back 3 or 4 generations of mostly titled dogs, Now for a price of 1700 USA dollars all in delivery to the Airport is not a bad price
Now the USA being such a big place will a person go the length of the USA to see a Pup before they buy it that is one thing
Another is this and a very Important one is Normally when ever you go to any top breeder unless you are the first to book from a litter you will not get the choice of your pick it is impossible If a female has a litter of say 8 Pups and the Breeding is top class then that whole 8 Pups will be sold before they are even born that is fact,
I know with my Izzy the Nest Mates were gone before they were born and i believe the next litter also same Father and Mother
As i say unless you are first there then you do not have a choice and again why do you need a choice if the breeder is a reputable one he knows better than the customer providing the customer tells him what they want the Pup for
Again for instance if you want one for working he can then watch and pick a Pup accordingly if you want one for a House Pet there may be things in a Pup which he can see will be more suitable but all of it is hit and miss there are never a Guarantee that any Pup no matter how good a bred dog it is will make the grade in the chosen Sport mapped out for it
It depends on the Pup how it is bought up and how good a trainer the handler is
People say this and that after a time the Pup is not up to standard
Does anyone ever say they are not up to standard as a trainer , No 'they do not, but 9 out of 10 times that is the cause of failure the Handler and the up bringing not the Pup at all
Steve1
For me the above hold true, but Let me say this
I have as i have said many times owned Dogs for 60 plus years Pedigree Dogs worked then in Sheep herding and Competitions etc when i the UK they were Border Collies then But in all those years i have never bred a Pup
Now let us say in a few years time young Izzy does well in the chosen Sport set out for her ScHh. Of course i am hoping her Hips and Elbows with be first class that is priority and i would hope to get her Korclassed
Now then she does well and i think i will breed a litter of Pups from her, the Only guarantee i will make to the purchaser is that the Pups will be healthy and sound and without any faults which can be seen
I will make no guarantees of any working ability but will do my best to pick a Pup out accordingly, I will not guarantee 100% Hips and Elbows for i cannot Guarantee what i cannot see,
The Breeding of both Parents and Ancestry will be impeccable of strong proven working lines at World Championship level both sides of the Breeding that i will Guarantee
So will or will not the litter sell, Those will be the criteria i will sell on no false promises only what i can see in the Pup at the time of transport
Now the USA being such a big place will a person go the length of the USA to see a Pup before they buy it that is one thing
Another is this and a very Important one is Normally when ever you go to any top breeder unless you are the first to book from a litter you will not get the choice of your pick it is impossible If a female has a litter of say 8 Pups and the Breeding is top class then that whole 8 Pups will be sold before they are even born that is fact,
I know with my Izzy the Nest Mates were gone before they were born and i believe the next litter also same Father and Mother
As i say unless you are first there then you do not have a choice and again why do you need a choice if the breeder is a reputable one he knows better than the customer providing the customer tells him what they want the Pup for
Again for instance if you want one for working he can then watch and pick a Pup accordingly if you want one for a House Pet there may be things in a Pup which he can see will be more suitable but all of it is hit and miss there are never a Guarantee that any Pup no matter how good a bred dog it is will make the grade in the chosen Sport mapped out for it
It depends on the Pup how it is bought up and how good a trainer the handler is
People say this and that after a time the Pup is not up to standard
Does anyone ever say they are not up to standard as a trainer , No 'they do not, but 9 out of 10 times that is the cause of failure the Handler and the up bringing not the Pup at all
Steve1
For me the above hold true, but Let me say this
I have as i have said many times owned Dogs for 60 plus years Pedigree Dogs worked then in Sheep herding and Competitions etc when i the UK they were Border Collies then But in all those years i have never bred a Pup
Now let us say in a few years time young Izzy does well in the chosen Sport set out for her ScHh. Of course i am hoping her Hips and Elbows with be first class that is priority and i would hope to get her Korclassed
Now then she does well and i think i will breed a litter of Pups from her, the Only guarantee i will make to the purchaser is that the Pups will be healthy and sound and without any faults which can be seen
I will make no guarantees of any working ability but will do my best to pick a Pup out accordingly, I will not guarantee 100% Hips and Elbows for i cannot Guarantee what i cannot see,
The Breeding of both Parents and Ancestry will be impeccable of strong proven working lines at World Championship level both sides of the Breeding that i will Guarantee
So will or will not the litter sell, Those will be the criteria i will sell on no false promises only what i can see in the Pup at the time of transport
by VomRuiz on 08 February 2010 - 09:02
Exactly Steve... As you know the ONLY reason I was able to get Isolina is because someone backed out. They were all spoken for, even before they dropped.
S.
*Edit to add- Isolina is not the same pup mentioned in my above post*
S.
*Edit to add- Isolina is not the same pup mentioned in my above post*
by steve1 on 08 February 2010 - 09:02
Stacy
I know that was just an Illustration just as mine is
Best
Steve
I know that was just an Illustration just as mine is
Best
Steve
by Oskar1 on 08 February 2010 - 10:02
Hey Stacy,
did you get my PM ?
Ulli
did you get my PM ?
Ulli
by VonWal on 08 February 2010 - 16:02
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/forum/26822.html
by VomRuiz on 08 February 2010 - 20:02
Ulli...wrote you in pm...
Stacy
Stacy
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