breeding snafu? Help! - Page 2

Well maybe another breeder on this site knows them and can educate them on sable genetics.  When I was originally told by someone else  that this puppy was not by said sire, I did research BEFORE I contacted them.  I got basically how dare you question us, and a lot of mumbo-jumbo about genetics.  I was a biology major, and I'm in the health care field.   I'm not a dog breeder, so I must know nothing!   Actually I'm not mad as of yet.  Accidents happen.  Someone could have let the dogs out without knowing the female was coming in season.  I just want it fixed.  I don't think I'm being unreasonable. 

send the link to this thread to the breeder.  They do need to fix the paperwork or refund your money - or you can make big trouble for them with akc via dna testing.  It's cut and dry - the sire is not the one on paper - proven already by color genetics (not possible to produce a sable in that pairing) - so they need to fix the paperwork, period. 

molly

Molly,
Excellent replies (as usual) and I learned something as well.  Thank you.

Jim

Thanks for the advice, Molly.  The link has been sent.  I just hope this can be worked out.  And thanks to all for your help.

It takes one sable parent to make a sable pup, if you look at both parents and neither are a sable, than look around and see if they own a sable boy some where on their property........hello......just like 2 yellow labs only have yellows, you need at least one of the parents to be a sable in order to get a sable pup......

You can DNA your pup, and that should tell you 100% if the 2 dogs in question are the parents, after all.....isn't that what DNA is for..........

I DNA all my breeding stock, just incase someone has a question like yours down the line....

Cute pup! I'll take her! jh

This is by far the BEST site I;ve found regarding color genetics. 


http://abnormality.purpleflowers.net/genetics/index.htm

I think it might be - and I could be wrong - that the color pattern is actually "agouti", not "sable".  Agouti is not a dominant color pattern, while sable is a dominant color pattern.  (and technically, neither of them are actually "colors", but are patterns of color. .

This is how they describe it:

THE AGOUTI SERIES

The agouti series consists of:
Ay - sable
aw - agouti
as - saddle pattern
at - tan points
a - recessive black


Agouti Description - In its normal form, agouti can be almost identical to shaded sable. The main difference is the banded hairs, but if you can't get close enough to see those, the pattern is also slightly different. Agouti tends to follow the same pattern as traditional tan points rather than creeping tan (see below), although it does appear to vary


 Sable Description:  there are three types of sable pattern. 

Clear sable - completely red dogs with just a few black hairs. They can be almost impossible to distinguish from recessive red dogs

tipped sable - red dogs with black hairs, usually on the back, head and tail. It seems that most tipped sables also have black masks (Em), so it's possible there is a link between the two genes

shaded sable - red dogs with brown and black hairs covering the top of the head, ears and back, in a distinctive pattern similar to the pattern seen on dogs with creeping tan

Note:  I just re-read the DNA research which seems ot indicate there is no Ay, but only ay?   strange...

It is possible that the sire is a very black sable, he has a sable sire.  Has he produced any sables with non sable bitches before?

Margaret N-J