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by LilyDexter on 04 November 2012 - 22:11
I find it very worrying that the term 'Accredited Breeder' is used as a hallmark of quality, when in reality most accredited breeders are the ones who breed lots of litters per year and buy & sell dogs like there's no tomorrow. They know that people will be more likely to buy their pups as they think they are getting better quality & so they use the KC as a sure way of selling litters, they often can't even fill the demand it's so high.
I bought my new pup from a small breeder, they were'nt accredited to the KC as a small time breeder wouldn't have a few hundred pounds to waste on the KC fee. But my beeder did everything (and more) that was required of an Accredited breeder,and sold most of the pups at half price in partnerships, so wasn't purely out to make money like many are.
When I bought my last GSD 6 years ago I visited a local breeder from the KC site & was met with filthy dogs that couldn't come in the house to greet us (because they would make us muddy - bit were probably of unstable temperament) the breeder didn't know the pups parentage off the top of her head (probably as she bred too many) but had to consult a file. The dogs I saw were of poor quality & she said some lived with her & others at the stables & with er mum (suspicious). As for the pup itself it was a sad thing, 9 wks old, covered in mud, shaking ike a lea in a small crate that was littered with poo. I left disgusted. But over the years I have checke don the site & there is always a litter for sale fom this breeeder & more recently I saw they were now Accrdited - that just about says it all!!
I know of breeders n other breeders who refuse to join the scheme as they think the standards are too low & I agree.
My standards would be that If you are an accredited breeder then you should breed no more than 3 litters per year, your dogs should live in the home environment so that they are well socialised to the home environment so you should have no more than about 6. Mum should be at least 3 yrs, dad at least 2yrs with all releveant health certificates, elbows to be 0/0, hips under 15 total, eyes clear and any other tests relevant to be done (DM for GSD's too). No breeding on back to back seasons, pups born in the home & kept indoors until 8wks, sold with the first vaccination & microchip. And colours produced must be recognised by the KC. This is not difficult achieve, it's what my pups breeder quite naturallly fulfilled as she does it for the love of the breed, not profit.
I bought my new pup from a small breeder, they were'nt accredited to the KC as a small time breeder wouldn't have a few hundred pounds to waste on the KC fee. But my beeder did everything (and more) that was required of an Accredited breeder,and sold most of the pups at half price in partnerships, so wasn't purely out to make money like many are.
When I bought my last GSD 6 years ago I visited a local breeder from the KC site & was met with filthy dogs that couldn't come in the house to greet us (because they would make us muddy - bit were probably of unstable temperament) the breeder didn't know the pups parentage off the top of her head (probably as she bred too many) but had to consult a file. The dogs I saw were of poor quality & she said some lived with her & others at the stables & with er mum (suspicious). As for the pup itself it was a sad thing, 9 wks old, covered in mud, shaking ike a lea in a small crate that was littered with poo. I left disgusted. But over the years I have checke don the site & there is always a litter for sale fom this breeeder & more recently I saw they were now Accrdited - that just about says it all!!
I know of breeders n other breeders who refuse to join the scheme as they think the standards are too low & I agree.
My standards would be that If you are an accredited breeder then you should breed no more than 3 litters per year, your dogs should live in the home environment so that they are well socialised to the home environment so you should have no more than about 6. Mum should be at least 3 yrs, dad at least 2yrs with all releveant health certificates, elbows to be 0/0, hips under 15 total, eyes clear and any other tests relevant to be done (DM for GSD's too). No breeding on back to back seasons, pups born in the home & kept indoors until 8wks, sold with the first vaccination & microchip. And colours produced must be recognised by the KC. This is not difficult achieve, it's what my pups breeder quite naturallly fulfilled as she does it for the love of the breed, not profit.
by Hundmutter on 05 November 2012 - 11:11
Oh Lily ... I WISH !!!
You are so right.
You are so right.
by justjanes on 05 November 2012 - 12:11
I am sorry to hear of another poorly dog but as like the last time epilepsy was being talked about, a big fuss was made and nothing came of it and now more lines are being brought out, I know something needs to be done, and quite right as abby normal and hundmutter has said these should be brought out for the general public. Some though need to draw there neck in and admit that there are more folks know about the health of dogs than they think.. and not always punting out to seek the pedigree researcher and the vets letter etc etc, the proof as far as I would think is there with these poor dogs, that should be enough, for breeders to choose the right dogs to mate, to get it on here is a good start.
It needs to be handled in a more proper way than the last time which I'm sure it will be,by whot ive read so far, going to the vet at the kc is far better than plastering it all over groups about your poorly dog.
by Hundmutter on 06 November 2012 - 16:11
JustJanes :
Not quite sure what you mean, but if it wasn't for using this board I would not
have got the proven links from ppl who have been affected which is allowing
me to compose the case now, to try to get the Kennel Club to move, and do
something useful about it. Some of us had worked out the connections years
since, but without specific situations the KC has already had individually reported
to it, they have rejected what I and others have said in general terms as unproven.
I actually do not think they are going to be able to do that anymore.
Plus, any publicity that gets those links and health issues out into the open
and starts to get posts saying how useful it is to know what to check for in advance
of buying a puppy - as these two threads now have - is a very good thing, surely ?
Of course the breeders perpetuating this should - and largely DO - know better,
they see and hear what cases come up; but even where prepared to admit that,
they often do not normally stop breeding with affected / carrier dogs, OR their
lines. All credit to anyone who says they will, and actually lives up to that; but many
just shunt the problem on, either around their circle of friends or to the dog-buying
public who are still ignorant of these inbred defects.
Even if we don't have to "punt out" as you put it, to get help from Breed Council
records, what one individual finds out, privately, after they've bought a dog that then
turns out to be sick, does not help the world as a whole. Boards like these can.
Linda.
Not quite sure what you mean, but if it wasn't for using this board I would not
have got the proven links from ppl who have been affected which is allowing
me to compose the case now, to try to get the Kennel Club to move, and do
something useful about it. Some of us had worked out the connections years
since, but without specific situations the KC has already had individually reported
to it, they have rejected what I and others have said in general terms as unproven.
I actually do not think they are going to be able to do that anymore.
Plus, any publicity that gets those links and health issues out into the open
and starts to get posts saying how useful it is to know what to check for in advance
of buying a puppy - as these two threads now have - is a very good thing, surely ?
Of course the breeders perpetuating this should - and largely DO - know better,
they see and hear what cases come up; but even where prepared to admit that,
they often do not normally stop breeding with affected / carrier dogs, OR their
lines. All credit to anyone who says they will, and actually lives up to that; but many
just shunt the problem on, either around their circle of friends or to the dog-buying
public who are still ignorant of these inbred defects.
Even if we don't have to "punt out" as you put it, to get help from Breed Council
records, what one individual finds out, privately, after they've bought a dog that then
turns out to be sick, does not help the world as a whole. Boards like these can.
Linda.
by Abby Normal on 06 November 2012 - 22:11
I too have read and re read your post several times JustJanes.
I feel there was some kind of criticism of telling the personal story of Megan over various forums in there, and if that was the case I feel repelled by it. If I am mistaken, I apologise, but I find it difficult to truly gauge the meaning of what you are trying to say.
Please clarify this for me:
Some though need to draw there neck in and admit that there are more folks know about the health of dogs than they think..
That sentence is escaping me, no matter how hard I try.
IMO there is every reason to 'plaster' the story and background about every epileptic dog that arises over every group that exists IMO, especially when they keep coming from the same breeders and same lines. I don't have a problem with that, and I am curious as to why you seem to? Or am I reading you all wrong?
Have you ever heard of a multi faceted approach?
I feel there was some kind of criticism of telling the personal story of Megan over various forums in there, and if that was the case I feel repelled by it. If I am mistaken, I apologise, but I find it difficult to truly gauge the meaning of what you are trying to say.
Please clarify this for me:
Some though need to draw there neck in and admit that there are more folks know about the health of dogs than they think..
That sentence is escaping me, no matter how hard I try.
IMO there is every reason to 'plaster' the story and background about every epileptic dog that arises over every group that exists IMO, especially when they keep coming from the same breeders and same lines. I don't have a problem with that, and I am curious as to why you seem to? Or am I reading you all wrong?
Have you ever heard of a multi faceted approach?
by Abby Normal on 06 November 2012 - 22:11
Interesting Krakenedge site says
lines do NOT contain American dogs brought into this country over the last few years who have been bred by other breeders.
liver dogs have NOT been combined with the "now well documented lines" known to contain epileptics in this country.
These liver dogs /pups will never knowingly find their way into breeding homes where colour is more important than the health and well being. -
Oh dear, Krakenedge Kalypso 74 hip score - yes 74, now has a litter of *chocolate* puppies. Bred for colour and money - certainly NOT health.
It would seem that you simply cannot believe a word that is written on these websites.
lines do NOT contain American dogs brought into this country over the last few years who have been bred by other breeders.
liver dogs have NOT been combined with the "now well documented lines" known to contain epileptics in this country.
These liver dogs /pups will never knowingly find their way into breeding homes where colour is more important than the health and well being. -
Oh dear, Krakenedge Kalypso 74 hip score - yes 74, now has a litter of *chocolate* puppies. Bred for colour and money - certainly NOT health.
It would seem that you simply cannot believe a word that is written on these websites.
by blackfurbabe on 06 November 2012 - 23:11
TAbbey, the website you refer to did not breed Krakenedge Kalypso,people should really get their facts correct before speaking out loud.
by GSD John on 07 November 2012 - 13:11
When you own a dog that suffers from Epilepsy and you are a member on dog groups (GSD) and have been given the freedom to discuss it openly, you have been given a great window of opportunity to enable people to learn more about this disease and how it affects the dog, and about lines involved, giving Both, breeders and pet owners information to make informed choices. We were fully aware that not all were happy about what was written, but we were also aware not all would be supportive.
We were fortunate to be able to write about Megan in articles, not only in the UK but in America, Toby's Foundation being such a source of support and encouragement, who helped by a lawyer, Karen Douglas whose own dog suffered from Epilepsy, we were privileged to become acquainted with the late Dr. M. Willis and Dr. Holger Volk who works and researches so hard for Dog and Feline Epilepsy.
We regret nothing of what we have done, except that we did not save Megan, that is the biggest and only regret, we would change nothing in our resolve to expose affected lines that have and still are being used in breeding programs.
Mr. Bill Lambert once said you must be quite unpopular with a lot of people, and yes he is right, but why would I want to be popular with people who could and have produced epilepsy, surely that says more about them than it does about me.
To the other poster I do not know who you are or what you hope to achieve but can only assume that you are one of these sad people out there that join constructive conversations such as these to boost their own ego while your contribution means nothing your words are empty and meaningless.
Megan ( Belgran Follow Your Dream) was an Epileptic, diagnosed after many invasive tests, she was on a cocktail of meds, and suffered from SLO and also had the onset of Cushings after the autopsy was performed on her, brain and organ tissue samples have been taken from her and kept at the Royal (Dick) Veterinary School and they also have instructional videos of her various seizures to be used in the teaching of new vets, Her swabs were sent to the universities carrying out Epilepsy research, blood samples were also sent to assist in research, sometimes you have to put your money where your mouth is, things do need to be done to stop the occurrence of Epilepsy, until you have been doing some of them, until you have dealt with an Epileptic dog or indeed a dog with a serious health issue, and you are genuinely trying to help, you do not have the right to comment on things you know nothing about,
To stop lines from being used that carry a health problems is not easy, we have and are still working hard with many active organisations and other people including breeders and pet owners of different breeds in the fight against Canine Epilepsy we have spoken with the Kennel Club/ the Dick Vet College in Edinburgh and we have ALL came down to the few areas that can help, IE pedigree research, being the most pertinent at the moment.
In what more *proper way* could it be handled.
Margaret
We were fortunate to be able to write about Megan in articles, not only in the UK but in America, Toby's Foundation being such a source of support and encouragement, who helped by a lawyer, Karen Douglas whose own dog suffered from Epilepsy, we were privileged to become acquainted with the late Dr. M. Willis and Dr. Holger Volk who works and researches so hard for Dog and Feline Epilepsy.
We regret nothing of what we have done, except that we did not save Megan, that is the biggest and only regret, we would change nothing in our resolve to expose affected lines that have and still are being used in breeding programs.
Mr. Bill Lambert once said you must be quite unpopular with a lot of people, and yes he is right, but why would I want to be popular with people who could and have produced epilepsy, surely that says more about them than it does about me.
To the other poster I do not know who you are or what you hope to achieve but can only assume that you are one of these sad people out there that join constructive conversations such as these to boost their own ego while your contribution means nothing your words are empty and meaningless.
Megan ( Belgran Follow Your Dream) was an Epileptic, diagnosed after many invasive tests, she was on a cocktail of meds, and suffered from SLO and also had the onset of Cushings after the autopsy was performed on her, brain and organ tissue samples have been taken from her and kept at the Royal (Dick) Veterinary School and they also have instructional videos of her various seizures to be used in the teaching of new vets, Her swabs were sent to the universities carrying out Epilepsy research, blood samples were also sent to assist in research, sometimes you have to put your money where your mouth is, things do need to be done to stop the occurrence of Epilepsy, until you have been doing some of them, until you have dealt with an Epileptic dog or indeed a dog with a serious health issue, and you are genuinely trying to help, you do not have the right to comment on things you know nothing about,
To stop lines from being used that carry a health problems is not easy, we have and are still working hard with many active organisations and other people including breeders and pet owners of different breeds in the fight against Canine Epilepsy we have spoken with the Kennel Club/ the Dick Vet College in Edinburgh and we have ALL came down to the few areas that can help, IE pedigree research, being the most pertinent at the moment.
In what more *proper way* could it be handled.
Margaret
by blackfurbabe on 07 November 2012 - 15:11
Abbey Normal.
Could you explain what Krakenedge Kalypso has to do with the website you took the text from as i have some facts about the website.
Fact :The website is not called Krakenedge.
Fact:Krakenedge do not have a website.
Fact: The website your quote comes from has never produced epilepsy.
Fact :The website holders do not own Krakenedge Kalypso.
Fact:The website holders did not breed Krakenedge Kalypso.
Fact:Krakenedge Kalypso has never produced epilepsy.
Fact:The website holders have had the pedigrees checked of the dogs stated on the site.
Fact: Black and Tan dogs produce epilepsy too. As can all other colours.
Fact: Without fact you are assuming a lot.
Fact Epilepsy must be investigated and known producers not bred,educate people yes,but you should not point fingers without fact.
And just because a dog is referred to as chocolate by someone does not make them the devil in carnate!
When someone told me there where liver gsd's, i replied what colour is that? They replied chocolate same as a labrador,i then understood what the colour looked like.
John and Margaret, i am very sorry for your loss and experience of a bad fault,i commend you for going to the lengths you have to try to pinpoint the disease of epilepsy it is a very long road sooooo many lines from Quadrille,and others.
by Hundmutter on 07 November 2012 - 19:11
As far as I am aware Abby never said she was looking at a 'Krakenedge' website;
this thread is about colour, viz looking at flogging 'chocolate' dogs on the market
because the proper description of liver doesn't sell so well - and you may well be
correct about the reason why that is; sadly so many people buying GSDs don't
bother to find out anything about them first, so of course the term is unfamiliar.
Point is, why breed from a bitch with such an appalling hip score ? Guess what -
because she produces the required colour puppies. Simples.
Any connection with epilepsy between this thread, dogs or breeders mentioned
in it, and ancestry carrying both hereditary epilepsy (or other health problems)
AND genes for dilute colours is PURELY COINCIDENTAL - my arse !
this thread is about colour, viz looking at flogging 'chocolate' dogs on the market
because the proper description of liver doesn't sell so well - and you may well be
correct about the reason why that is; sadly so many people buying GSDs don't
bother to find out anything about them first, so of course the term is unfamiliar.
Point is, why breed from a bitch with such an appalling hip score ? Guess what -
because she produces the required colour puppies. Simples.
Any connection with epilepsy between this thread, dogs or breeders mentioned
in it, and ancestry carrying both hereditary epilepsy (or other health problems)
AND genes for dilute colours is PURELY COINCIDENTAL - my arse !
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