Dual Sired Litters - Page 1

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by ThatWasClose on 18 October 2020 - 16:10

In the I learn something new everyday category:

AKC allows dual sired litters since 2000.


The dog breed that caught my interest today, was the Beauceron. I did not before know they can be blue merle. So I started looking around the internet out of curousity & to learn more about the breed. Over at AKC I found a breeder, delving further they stated they have a dual sired litter coming up soon. Rather surprised me.

Anyone here ever done this? Dual sired? It this allowed in Europe?



No dog breed I see on here will ever top the "pony" I came across. LOL

Western Rider (admin)

by Western Rider on 18 October 2020 - 16:10

Usually, a dual sired litter means that an accident happened. All pups then need to be DNA'd before papers are issued. 

There are still some poor (breeders) who will expose a female to a stud then will expose her to another stud just for fun.

Some do it because the first male may not have a very high sperm count and want to ensure a full litter.


Baerenfangs Erbe

by Baerenfangs Erbe on 18 October 2020 - 17:10

Actually, dual sired litters are done purposely when one male is already older and you just add a younger male on top. That way you don't 'waste' a breeding. I've done a dual sired litter on purpose. My C litter was a dual sired litter but I probably wouldn't do it again.

by AkitaPedigrees on 18 October 2020 - 21:10

Definitely 2 types of Dual Sired litters in the USA with AKC.

Plenty of people do them purposely for 2 reasons.

#1- They want a pup from both males with their female but either it's her last litter or they simply do not want to do 2 separate breedings.

#2- One stud they want to use, as mentioned by the person above me, is a veteran that may have tested poorly on sperm or has not been tested at all and is a risk, and they then use a 2nd male to ensure the breeding is not skipped, which there could be many reasons for.

Then the other reason is the breeder knew they had an oops and they're being responsible by testing ALL puppies for parentage (as opposed to only testing their potential keeper(s) with an outside company and simply pet homing the others just to cover it up). Sometimes the entire litter ends up being only from one male, sometimes both. Sometimes only one sire was the proper breed and then only the purebred pups are allowed registration.

For any reason, the AKC charges big fees for this as it IS a hassle in the paperwork category. They not only charge the cost to DNA each pup but also mom and all potential sires at $45 (prepaid) or $50 (pay on return) each. Most of the time dual sired litters are larger breeds as they're larger litters. So this part alone can get pricey. Then if both males are in fact the father they charge litter reg x2, typical reg fees for each pup, and something like a $200 fee for it being a dual sired litter.

Typically when done on purpose the best way to do a dual sired litter is to side-by-side A.i. (not frozen, surgical, or shipped) collect from both males, swirls the collections together, and implant at the same time so both have equal chance at proper timing and siring pups.

Most irreputable dual sired litters are found out LONG after litter is registered, because DNA came back as non matching, breeder's dogs were DNA tested, and the real purebred and registered father was found. I'm not sure what the fees are in that case but there's fines involved and they then require you to DNA test every dog on the property.

So it's very expensive regardless of the circumstances.

by ThatWasClose on 18 October 2020 - 23:10

@AkitaPedigrees, thank you for your time in answering. You answered some things I was still curious about. Especially this part:

"Typically when done on purpose the best way to do a dual sired litter is to side-by-side A.i. (not frozen, surgical, or shipped) collect from both males, swirls the collections together, and implant at the same time so both have equal chance at proper timing and siring pups."

 

I must have found an old page in regard to fees.  It was saying $25.   Times flies & so does inflation & fees.

 

Anyone know about the rules in Europe?  Just call it my daily continuing education.

 

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I am still big on   https://www.coursera.org/search?query=dog   Many university level classes one can audit there for free,  or pay to get your MBA, or learn Python programming, or get your Microsoft Certifications...Over 3,000 courses offered.

 


Baerenfangs Erbe

by Baerenfangs Erbe on 19 October 2020 - 12:10

Nope, Dual Sired Litters are incredibly expensive. The one I did was side by side AI. We basically just inserted a "cocktail" but still ended up with the whole litter being Athos puppies. This is likely why I wouldn't do it again unless I have a veteran male and don't want to waste the breeding.


Rik

by Rik on 19 October 2020 - 12:10

AKC is a for profit organization. whatever produces a profit, they are for. and lots of it.

Hundmutter

by Hundmutter on 19 October 2020 - 12:10

TWC, re European rules on AI:
I'm not an expert, because I have never been directly involved in an Artificial Insemination in GSDs. But as I understand it, Germany, i.e. the SV, has never lifted its ban on AI. I believe the FCI was against it also, unless that has changed & I missed it (but the relationship is odd between the USA & FCI, so maybe while objecting in Europe, the FCI chooses not to comment on what AKC allows ?). Could be wrong - I am sure someone will correct with up-to-date details, if so.

'Susie' told us some years ago that RSV2000 had decided to allow AI, and had set up a register accordingly, but I suspect that was in defiance of the SV / WUSV. AI does take place occasionally throughout Europe, although it is by no means frequent - so presumably not by those breeders who hope to sell back to or compete in Germany; & most people do not need to do it, as they can take bitches to the German studs, if they want. Some countries ( e.g Italy ?) seemed quite keen on RSV2000, but I don't know what has happened to RSV2000 in the last few years; does anyone else ?

I don't think the UK Kennel Club has a Rule against using AI - (all breeds); but then again, the thing about being a money-raising source could apply there too. I suspect even then that The KC would not be keen to allow a deliberate 'Dual Sired Litter'. (All KC Records would presumably have to be marked with an asterisk for every dog Registration which was of "impure or unverified origins" !)


by ThatWasClose on 19 October 2020 - 16:10

All this has certainly lead me to be curious how the Europeans would be at accepting an AKC registered dual sire litter dog.


by Diamondgal on 19 October 2020 - 20:10

That's not blue merle in the Beauceron. It's referred to as Harlequin. Yes, it's odd. But look at the sable and white Collie compared to the sable German shepherd. Even consider the fact that in the Louisiana Catahoula Leopard Dog carry the merle gene, but it's called Leopard. Blue Merle would be Blue Leopard, nevermind the oddball factor of blue eyes being called "Glass Eyes".





 


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