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by Videx on 31 January 2011 - 19:01
Two years ago I sent copies detailed correspondence I had with the Animal Health Trust (AHT) about setting up a DNA parentage Scheme for the GSD here in Great Britain which would be compatible with the SV DNA parentage Scheme, to Sheila Rankin Breed Council Secretary. Who in turn copied it to John Cullen GSD Breed Council Chairman. Like many progressive proposals and schemes, once the GSD Breed Council have anything to do with it you just know it will not reach fruition. The following posts may cause some considerable disillusionment amongst GSD enthusiasts regarding the complete failure of the GSD Breed Council & The GSD League & The BAGSD to take this very important initiative forward over the last two years.
How can we take our GSD Breed forward and implement very important changes and initiatives with the obvious lack of meaningful leadership amongst our major GSD breed organisations.
It must come as no surprise that any potential progress for our GSD breed here within the UK has some huge obstacles to overcome, not least the GSD Breed Council and The GSD League committee and The BAGSD Council, but also The Kennel Club and the apathetic attitude of far too many so called GSD Breed enthusiasts.
sent Fri 09/01/2009 13:14
Good Afternoon Mark Vaudin & Nigel Holmes (AHT)
I am inquiring as to the possibility that you could offer your DNA profiling & DNA parentage TESTS in the following manner:
a) DNA test (profile) a number of individual dogs – recording them as “DNA recorded”
b) When an offspring from ONE of the “DNA recorded” dogs is sampled and sent in for DNA profiling – it is recorded as “DNA recorded” because only ONE parent is “DNA recorded” (ON FILE)
c) when an offspring from TWO of the “DNA recorded” dogs (Sire & Dam) is sampled and sent in for DNA profiling – it is recorded as “DNA recorded & parentage proven”
and so on.
This system is offered by the SV & WUSV in Germany (by far the largest national & international GSD clubs in the World), and used extensively. It would be very useful to have such a system available in the United Kingdom for the GSD here, and of course ALL other breeds of dogs.
Many breeders and owners of dogs would desire to have their dog(s) DNA test for parentage, however very few will also OWN their dogs parents. The system of DNA testing for parentage that you currently offer, apparently requires ALL THREE blood samples to be sent into AHT at the same time, that is the DOG for parentage DNA testing and BOTH its parents. This is rarely possible or practical.
I hope you see the value of offering DNA parentage testing, in the manner outlined above, particularly as an ongoing and expanding service. I understand that the DNA parentage tests from the SV Germany, and your own DNA parentage tests are NOT compatable, for reasons I do not understand. This makes your tests in the UK for UK breeders somewhat more desirable.
I look forward to your considered response.
I trust my comments about what AHT currently offer are accurate, if not I look forward to being enlightened.
Best regards
David Payne
How can we take our GSD Breed forward and implement very important changes and initiatives with the obvious lack of meaningful leadership amongst our major GSD breed organisations.
It must come as no surprise that any potential progress for our GSD breed here within the UK has some huge obstacles to overcome, not least the GSD Breed Council and The GSD League committee and The BAGSD Council, but also The Kennel Club and the apathetic attitude of far too many so called GSD Breed enthusiasts.
sent Fri 09/01/2009 13:14
Good Afternoon Mark Vaudin & Nigel Holmes (AHT)
I am inquiring as to the possibility that you could offer your DNA profiling & DNA parentage TESTS in the following manner:
a) DNA test (profile) a number of individual dogs – recording them as “DNA recorded”
b) When an offspring from ONE of the “DNA recorded” dogs is sampled and sent in for DNA profiling – it is recorded as “DNA recorded” because only ONE parent is “DNA recorded” (ON FILE)
c) when an offspring from TWO of the “DNA recorded” dogs (Sire & Dam) is sampled and sent in for DNA profiling – it is recorded as “DNA recorded & parentage proven”
and so on.
This system is offered by the SV & WUSV in Germany (by far the largest national & international GSD clubs in the World), and used extensively. It would be very useful to have such a system available in the United Kingdom for the GSD here, and of course ALL other breeds of dogs.
Many breeders and owners of dogs would desire to have their dog(s) DNA test for parentage, however very few will also OWN their dogs parents. The system of DNA testing for parentage that you currently offer, apparently requires ALL THREE blood samples to be sent into AHT at the same time, that is the DOG for parentage DNA testing and BOTH its parents. This is rarely possible or practical.
I hope you see the value of offering DNA parentage testing, in the manner outlined above, particularly as an ongoing and expanding service. I understand that the DNA parentage tests from the SV Germany, and your own DNA parentage tests are NOT compatable, for reasons I do not understand. This makes your tests in the UK for UK breeders somewhat more desirable.
I look forward to your considered response.
I trust my comments about what AHT currently offer are accurate, if not I look forward to being enlightened.
Best regards
David Payne
by Videx on 31 January 2011 - 19:01
Dear David,
Thank you for your e-mail
We do offer profiling and parentage. although the two schemes are not identical.
Our parentage service is currently run on a confidential basis to the client - however, if GSD clubs wanted us to set up a system where results could be released to the club or clubs then we could certainly do that. it would be made clear on the form that results would be sent on a regular basis to a third party and clients would then sign to confirm that they had read and agreed with those terms. Any breeder not signing could not, therefore, submit a sample for that profiling/parentage service. The current DNA profiling service is a separate scheme from our parentage scheme - the profiling scheme is in fact run jointly with the Kennel Club whereas the parentage scheme is not.
I am not sure why our results would not be compatible with those of other laboratories, such as those in the SV Germany scheme that you quote. However, the current situation for DNA profiling of dogs is not as straightforward as it could be and there are several standards in operation. We use a standard from the International Society of Animal Genetics (ISAG) which is supported by a two year international comparison test run by that organisation - this enables us (and other laboratories around the world) to standardise the profiles which we hold on our databases and ensures that the profiles from one laboratory are compatible with those from other laboratories. We can therefore exchange profiles with other laboratories and use those profiles, for example for verifying parentage. The original ISAG standard (ISAG2004) has now been replaced by another standard ISAG2006. We can do profiles to either standard, although our joint AHT/KC Profiling Scheme is run on ISAG2004. We do however do parentage analysis to ISAG2006. I would need to know a little more about the technical details of the SV Germany scheme to be able to confirm whether their profiles are compatible with either of these ISAG standards - although most European testing labs do use the ISAG standards.
I hope that answers your questions,
Regards,
Nigel Holmes
Thank you for your e-mail
We do offer profiling and parentage. although the two schemes are not identical.
Our parentage service is currently run on a confidential basis to the client - however, if GSD clubs wanted us to set up a system where results could be released to the club or clubs then we could certainly do that. it would be made clear on the form that results would be sent on a regular basis to a third party and clients would then sign to confirm that they had read and agreed with those terms. Any breeder not signing could not, therefore, submit a sample for that profiling/parentage service. The current DNA profiling service is a separate scheme from our parentage scheme - the profiling scheme is in fact run jointly with the Kennel Club whereas the parentage scheme is not.
I am not sure why our results would not be compatible with those of other laboratories, such as those in the SV Germany scheme that you quote. However, the current situation for DNA profiling of dogs is not as straightforward as it could be and there are several standards in operation. We use a standard from the International Society of Animal Genetics (ISAG) which is supported by a two year international comparison test run by that organisation - this enables us (and other laboratories around the world) to standardise the profiles which we hold on our databases and ensures that the profiles from one laboratory are compatible with those from other laboratories. We can therefore exchange profiles with other laboratories and use those profiles, for example for verifying parentage. The original ISAG standard (ISAG2004) has now been replaced by another standard ISAG2006. We can do profiles to either standard, although our joint AHT/KC Profiling Scheme is run on ISAG2004. We do however do parentage analysis to ISAG2006. I would need to know a little more about the technical details of the SV Germany scheme to be able to confirm whether their profiles are compatible with either of these ISAG standards - although most European testing labs do use the ISAG standards.
I hope that answers your questions,
Regards,
Nigel Holmes
by Videx on 31 January 2011 - 19:01
From: David Payne
Sent: 10 January 2009 09:07
To: Wendy; Andrew Winfrow; Brigid Newlands; Sheila Rankin
Cc: Thomasmonds@aol.com; Chris Hazell; Gayville (david.gsds@blueyonder.co.uk); John Ward; nikki@nikonisgsd.co.uk; Paul Bradley; Philip Prince (shernaa@tiscali.co.uk); Steve Foran
Subject: FW: CANINE DNA TESTING - LINK ON MY WEBSITE? and DNA profiling LINKING with DNA parentage testing
To: The GSD Breed Council & BAGSD & The GSD League (The GSD-UK Partnership)
I am very interested in a DNA Parentage Testing System being introduced in the UK for German Shepherd Dogs. I would also wish this to be linked with an Identification System of a Tattoo/Microchip requirement.
I contacted the Animal Health Trust by telephone and discussed at length what they currently offer, following which I wrote my email below to the persons I was advised could provide the answers to my consequential questions.
I received a reply from Nigel Holmes (below) and his reply offers considerable potential for the introduction of a DNA Parentage Testing System within the United Kingdom for our breed.
I would NOT hold my breath waiting for the Kennel Club to facilitate this, however with our new and potentially very promising GSD-UK Partnership being inaugurated recently, I felt this issue would be perfect for them to Facilitate for our breed here in the UK. This would clearly demonstrate that the GSD-UK Partnership are proactive in introducing valuable Systems into the UK for our breed, in line with their individual Organisations history in relation to The Hip Scheme, The Tattoo Scheme and Haemophilia testing scheme.
I hope the GSD-UK Partnership will pursue this initiative with some vigour and determination, Our breed needs such an approach with its attendant publicity, it will certainly generate enthusiasm and support for your current dealings with The Kennel Club.
I have emailed Reinhardt Meyer SV National Breed Warden, separately regarding compatibility of the AHT and SV DNA Parentage Tests. I can forward you a copy of my email if you wish.
Best regards
David Payne
VIDEX GSD
Sent: 10 January 2009 09:07
To: Wendy; Andrew Winfrow; Brigid Newlands; Sheila Rankin
Cc: Thomasmonds@aol.com; Chris Hazell; Gayville (david.gsds@blueyonder.co.uk); John Ward; nikki@nikonisgsd.co.uk; Paul Bradley; Philip Prince (shernaa@tiscali.co.uk); Steve Foran
Subject: FW: CANINE DNA TESTING - LINK ON MY WEBSITE? and DNA profiling LINKING with DNA parentage testing
To: The GSD Breed Council & BAGSD & The GSD League (The GSD-UK Partnership)
I am very interested in a DNA Parentage Testing System being introduced in the UK for German Shepherd Dogs. I would also wish this to be linked with an Identification System of a Tattoo/Microchip requirement.
I contacted the Animal Health Trust by telephone and discussed at length what they currently offer, following which I wrote my email below to the persons I was advised could provide the answers to my consequential questions.
I received a reply from Nigel Holmes (below) and his reply offers considerable potential for the introduction of a DNA Parentage Testing System within the United Kingdom for our breed.
I would NOT hold my breath waiting for the Kennel Club to facilitate this, however with our new and potentially very promising GSD-UK Partnership being inaugurated recently, I felt this issue would be perfect for them to Facilitate for our breed here in the UK. This would clearly demonstrate that the GSD-UK Partnership are proactive in introducing valuable Systems into the UK for our breed, in line with their individual Organisations history in relation to The Hip Scheme, The Tattoo Scheme and Haemophilia testing scheme.
I hope the GSD-UK Partnership will pursue this initiative with some vigour and determination, Our breed needs such an approach with its attendant publicity, it will certainly generate enthusiasm and support for your current dealings with The Kennel Club.
I have emailed Reinhardt Meyer SV National Breed Warden, separately regarding compatibility of the AHT and SV DNA Parentage Tests. I can forward you a copy of my email if you wish.
Best regards
David Payne
VIDEX GSD
by Videx on 31 January 2011 - 19:01
From: Sheila Rankin
Sent: 10 January 2009 12:19
To: David Payne
Cc: Wendy; Andrew Winfrow; Brigid Newlands; Thomasmonds@aol.com; Chris Hazell; Gayville; John Ward; nikki farley; Paul Bradley; Philip Prince; Steve Foran; pauline cullen
Subject: CANINE DNA TESTING and DNA profiling LINKING with DNA parentage testing
Thank you for the information, I have added John Cullen into it.
Regards,
Sheila
Sent: 10 January 2009 12:19
To: David Payne
Cc: Wendy; Andrew Winfrow; Brigid Newlands; Thomasmonds@aol.com; Chris Hazell; Gayville; John Ward; nikki farley; Paul Bradley; Philip Prince; Steve Foran; pauline cullen
Subject: CANINE DNA TESTING and DNA profiling LINKING with DNA parentage testing
Thank you for the information, I have added John Cullen into it.
Regards,
Sheila
by Marge on 31 January 2011 - 21:01
Anyone can have an idea, thats the easy part, the hard part is putting an idea into practice, that takes time, money and skill. Anyone can write a letter, putting an idea in a letter is the easy part, otherwise why not process it yourself, why pass the buck. Dear who ever, an alternative pedigree database would be beneficial to the british gsd scene, you should create one asap. marge
Dear who ever, a genetic bloodbank linked to the british survey scheme could be beneficial to the British gsd scene, can you give this urgent attention please. marge.
Dear who ever, a genetic bloodbank linked to the british survey scheme could be beneficial to the British gsd scene, can you give this urgent attention please. marge.
by Videx on 01 February 2011 - 01:02
You clearly have difficulty reading the extent to which I pursued this issue, and that it was NOT an idea or my idea. This is something which the SV have established and set up since the 1990's. We have two WUSV Breed Clubs here in the UK. We have a GSD Breed Council, surely it doesn't take much imagination or effort to take what exists with the SV, and then to explore the development of a compatible scheme here within the UK. Marge, nothing you have written, excuses the two years of zero progress on this matter, indeed you over-simplify in pathetic attempt to excuse two years of inaction. Such a scheme can ONLY be established by a National GSD Organisation. They want the Power, but do they want the work and responsibility. Much work has been done by John Ward and others on developing a facility for computerisation of many aspects important for our breed. I find it incredible how this has not been fully utilised. Organisations have elected leaders and officers to process the needs of our breed, when they fail, THEY fail, not the person who raises the requirement, especially when that person does some of the groundwork outside of any such organisation.
Marge your response clearly illustrates your own limitations and you offer a pathetic excuse for our National Breed Organisations for doing very little and achieving nothing over the last two years on this matter and even longer in reality. Our breed has far too many people like you Marge who simply fail by being overly simplistic.
Marge your response clearly illustrates your own limitations and you offer a pathetic excuse for our National Breed Organisations for doing very little and achieving nothing over the last two years on this matter and even longer in reality. Our breed has far too many people like you Marge who simply fail by being overly simplistic.
by Mackenzie on 01 February 2011 - 08:02
I wholeheartedly support David Payne in this matter. I also applaud him in his attempts to gather support for this very important point for the benefit of the breed and it’s aficionados and clients.
A few years ago I bought two females from Germany who were, on paper, well bred and beneficial to a breeding programme. The pedigree was incorrect and it was found that the correct sire was a different male to the one on the SV papers. Had I known the correct sire I would not have purchased the animals as they carried the same undesirable problems often seen in his offspring. I took the matter up with the SV as I had been a member for many years. The response was that I should refer the matter to my own club. When I pointed out that the SV was the only club that I belonged to the President at the time refused, in writing, to discuss the matter with me. The breeder got off virtually untouched. He continued as a Koermeister and Judge. Financially, it was a very costly exercise for me and I put the animals into pet homes free of charge.
At the time of my experience other pedigrees came to light which were also incorrect. Including some top males who were widely used, one a result of a brother sister mating. The biggest losers in these instances is not the breeders but the breed itself. When we look back at that period in time honest breeders did not always know exactly what they were dealing with and, therefore, we are now faced with the realities of trying to put matters right, something that will take generations to achieve if ever. Even now there are two top ten males with a history of epilepsy behind them. All of this explains why the breed has lost so many of the attributes that made it, unquestionably, the number 1 breed in the world.
I sincerely hope that everyone in the UK will get behind David on this one because this is such an important issue for breeders and most of all for the breed itself.
Mackenzie
A few years ago I bought two females from Germany who were, on paper, well bred and beneficial to a breeding programme. The pedigree was incorrect and it was found that the correct sire was a different male to the one on the SV papers. Had I known the correct sire I would not have purchased the animals as they carried the same undesirable problems often seen in his offspring. I took the matter up with the SV as I had been a member for many years. The response was that I should refer the matter to my own club. When I pointed out that the SV was the only club that I belonged to the President at the time refused, in writing, to discuss the matter with me. The breeder got off virtually untouched. He continued as a Koermeister and Judge. Financially, it was a very costly exercise for me and I put the animals into pet homes free of charge.
At the time of my experience other pedigrees came to light which were also incorrect. Including some top males who were widely used, one a result of a brother sister mating. The biggest losers in these instances is not the breeders but the breed itself. When we look back at that period in time honest breeders did not always know exactly what they were dealing with and, therefore, we are now faced with the realities of trying to put matters right, something that will take generations to achieve if ever. Even now there are two top ten males with a history of epilepsy behind them. All of this explains why the breed has lost so many of the attributes that made it, unquestionably, the number 1 breed in the world.
I sincerely hope that everyone in the UK will get behind David on this one because this is such an important issue for breeders and most of all for the breed itself.
Mackenzie
by jaymesie51 on 01 February 2011 - 08:02
I think that a DNA paretage test should be part of a breed survey pass requirement, i would rather know that the puppy i was buying, was from the parents that the breeder was telling me, than knowing the mother and father can do a sit stay, what is more important a KC bronze or parents being the true parents.
jim h
jim h
by Doppelganger on 01 February 2011 - 09:02
This may be dismissed as simplistic, but if breeders started to do this themselves and promoted the fact then buyers would have the proof they needed, and maybe other breeders would start to take the initiative and hopefully it would become the norm, with those not doing so finding it harder to sell puppies. Yes there would always be the commercial breeders and those who didn't care about the breed, but if breeders did all they could themselves then they would surely reap the rewards.
by Videx on 01 February 2011 - 10:02
Thank you Mackenzie for providing some powerful examples which fully support a DA parentage Scheme here within the UK.
Some breeders do the SV DNA Parentage test of some or all of their dogs. Videx GSD is one of them.
Some time ago I requested the GSD League to explore the possible use/adoption of the SV DNA Parentage Scheme throughout the UK as a dedicated British GSDL/SV DNA Parentage Scheme. The cost for each test with the SV is just over £40 plus the taking of the blood sample and completing a simple form by a Vet. The SV will have to carefully examine if and how they can deal with the British bred GSD with British pedigrees and with British Kennel Club registered names. That is why it would be useful to ask if it was possible for them to help establish a British Scheme using their SV method and system.
Some of you may not understand the SV registration system and their rules. For instance they do not allow name changes, which I fully agree with, however our Kennel Club see this as a just another revenue stream.
Jim I fully agree with your point of a DNA Parentage Test becoming a requirement of our Breed Survey surely it should be strongly prioritised by the Breed Council. Correct identification is absolutely the first priority when surveying a GSD. A microchip/Tattoo is only physical identification, surely we should require confirmation of its genetic identification.
Doppelganger makes a very powerful point about puppy buyers wanting DNA Parentage proof when choosing which puppy to buy. Such a requirement would soon become requested by the majority of puppy inquiries, this would hit those who didn't bother and the puppy buyers could also have their puppy DNA Parentage Tested, which would make "any fiddlers" very concerned indeed. The whole point of having a British DNA Parentage Scheme is for each dog to have a the DNA test registered with a National GSD organisation, and published as DNA Parentage Tested or DNA Parentage Proven or DNA Parentage Failed. Therefore any claims, true or false, in respect of DNA Parentage Tests can be readily checked and identified.
Some breeders do the SV DNA Parentage test of some or all of their dogs. Videx GSD is one of them.
Some time ago I requested the GSD League to explore the possible use/adoption of the SV DNA Parentage Scheme throughout the UK as a dedicated British GSDL/SV DNA Parentage Scheme. The cost for each test with the SV is just over £40 plus the taking of the blood sample and completing a simple form by a Vet. The SV will have to carefully examine if and how they can deal with the British bred GSD with British pedigrees and with British Kennel Club registered names. That is why it would be useful to ask if it was possible for them to help establish a British Scheme using their SV method and system.
Some of you may not understand the SV registration system and their rules. For instance they do not allow name changes, which I fully agree with, however our Kennel Club see this as a just another revenue stream.
Jim I fully agree with your point of a DNA Parentage Test becoming a requirement of our Breed Survey surely it should be strongly prioritised by the Breed Council. Correct identification is absolutely the first priority when surveying a GSD. A microchip/Tattoo is only physical identification, surely we should require confirmation of its genetic identification.
Doppelganger makes a very powerful point about puppy buyers wanting DNA Parentage proof when choosing which puppy to buy. Such a requirement would soon become requested by the majority of puppy inquiries, this would hit those who didn't bother and the puppy buyers could also have their puppy DNA Parentage Tested, which would make "any fiddlers" very concerned indeed. The whole point of having a British DNA Parentage Scheme is for each dog to have a the DNA test registered with a National GSD organisation, and published as DNA Parentage Tested or DNA Parentage Proven or DNA Parentage Failed. Therefore any claims, true or false, in respect of DNA Parentage Tests can be readily checked and identified.
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