Penn hip before bite training? - Page 1

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by StayCivil on 17 May 2020 - 09:05

After you answer my last question,Haha. Vet recommends Penn hip testing before beginning protection/schutzund. His logic is that if her hips aren't great then maybe the training would make her hips worse. Her pedigree is pretty good for hips, as far as I can tell.
Makes sense to me , but I'm new to this scene. He prefers Penn hip and said OFA is not nearly as effective.
He does not do this test so it's not for $. Another local vet does it. Can I trust any certified(Penn hip) vet to do this or should I be picky what vet does it?
Does this seem like a good strategy?
Thanks, Seth


Koots

by Koots on 17 May 2020 - 10:05

I would not bother about pre-lims until 1 yr old unless you see some odd movement. Just don't stress her joints too much as a young pup/dog - minimize the jumping, moderate exercise, swimming if you have area for it.

Edited to add that you can do lots of foundation training for later bite work with low joint stress.  Rag/tug/bite pillow while back-tied if you're doing it on your own can be done in a way that dog is not leaping too high.  Targeting, grip, setting bite and pulling can all be worked on with low impact.   


by apple on 18 May 2020 - 08:05

First you need to find a very good helper/decoy which is much easier said than done. Then I would start the dog in bite work to see if he has the drive and nerves to excel because if he doesn't, there is no need to check his hips. Penn hip looks for laxity with the premise being that laxity causes hip dysplasia. The reality is that it is not clear what causes hip dysplasia and the causes may be multiple. One study showed dogs whose hips were evaluated with Penn hip and had very desireable D.I.'s and were breed, resulted in decreased laxity but no decrease in hip dysplasia.

emoryg

by emoryg on 18 May 2020 - 15:05

I’m not sure about the Penn Hip certification and what makes one vet better than the other.  As far as a good strategy, I highly recommend having hips checked early.  At six months you can get a preliminary evaluation from OFA.  If the hips are normal at six months, they should remain normal.  There are always exceptions, but the great majority will stay normal.

Concerning bite work, understand that thousands and thousands of puppies get started in bite work every year while they are between 12-16 weeks of age.  Many, including myself start them as soon they have enough teeth to hold on.  The only hip injuries I have ever experienced with my dogs were away from the controlled environment of the training field.  If it was me, I would do the bite work, but still get an xray off to the OFA or a qualified vet radiologist. 

 


by Rik on 18 May 2020 - 19:05

I never bought into the Penn hip is better, though I certainly do think it is as useful as any other method. I do not like the added stress.

for me, I just wanted a clear, clean look that there were no obvious defects in the hips. OFA does that as well as PH, IMO only.

also family history, which is why I feel the SV is doing the best job possible.

and while I do believe there are "environmental" or non genetic causes for HD, no one will ever convince me that it is a main contributor.

jmo,
Rik

by ValK on 18 May 2020 - 21:05

i curious where from this idea did come "be careful with exercises of pup/youngster, to avoid environmentally created hip dysplasia".
foremost correct and solid location of bone joins pretty much depends on the muscular tissue which wrapped around those joins and firmly hold them in place.
if one won't allow that pup/youngster to run/jump... how that pup will develop muscles?

by apple on 19 May 2020 - 06:05

Things like a lot of sudden stopping when running, such as a lot of chasing a ball at high speeds or being on slick wooden floors are more of an issue than allowing pups to get other types of exercise. Swimming is probably the best way to build a pup's muscle mass without impacting the joints.

GK1

by GK1 on 19 May 2020 - 09:05


All this $$ folks drop on working/performance pups…then hand over more to the OFA/Penn hip racket for assurance they can exercise the pup.

Keep the older pup, young adult, adult, old adult THIN and naturally nourished…to perhaps reduce the instances of these ‘genetically predisposed, environmentally induced’ orthopedic problems. The best way to develop, strengthen joints is through natural movement based on the dogs inherent ability and willingness.

Swimming doesn’t build muscle mass, but tones and elongates. Sure swimming is effective for joint strengthening, my dogs train daily in water and are strong swimmers. But dogs are land animals and require weight bearing exercise.

Let the pup play: run, jump, pull, push, grapple and bite. Don’t over do anything, especially on hard surfaces; don’t coddle either. 


by ValK on 20 May 2020 - 11:05

pup/adult dog will do things as long as it's feels comfortable and capable to do it.
uncomfy feeling from exercise, fatigue does trig up uncontrollable self preservation mechanism, irregardless of age of dog.

GK1

by GK1 on 20 May 2020 - 12:05

some will let you know when is enough, if handler knows what to look for.

some will work till they collapse from fatigue, overheating or injury...even in the water.






 


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