Would you breed a dog whos 0/0 for elbow and hips but both parents are a2 fast normal - Page 1

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by xPyrotechnic on 13 May 2020 - 21:05

And they have 9 a2 fast normal in 5 gen, 1 noch zugelassen and the rest are a1.

by hexe on 14 May 2020 - 01:05

What are the hips and elbows like on that dog's littermates? How about the littermates of the parents?

You need to look at more than just that particular dog's ratings to get a better idea of what is being brought to the table. If every animal in the dog's pedigree have passing scores for hips and elbows, and the siblings of every animal in the dog's pedigree also all have passing scores, it wouldn't bother me to see fast normal ratings, or even some noch zugelassen, within a five generation pedigree, assuming that everything else about the dog was precisely what I was looking for, and the dog was truly worthy of being used for breeding.



bladeedge

by bladeedge on 14 May 2020 - 03:05

I would make that judgement on how the rest of the litter was. I would also need to understand what the breeding brought to the table. All the strength that the breeding will bring to the gsd no just my liter but to further breeding from pups out of the liter.

Hundmutter

by Hundmutter on 14 May 2020 - 03:05

Honest answer ? I second what Hexe says about looking at what's what with the siblings. And the background ancestry; confirm there is only that one NZ. [Ideally try to find out, if you can, if there have been any confirmed cases of HD or ED to dogs in the pedigree despite their good test results. (Yeah I know that may be very difficult).] Then (and if you've ONLY seen positive indications), if you AND OTHERS (eg Judges, experienced breeders etc) still think the dog really has more 'good' to offer than not, if it was me I'd probably chance it. But I'd make sure whichever animal I choose for the mating partner has an equally good or better test record & history; it takes 2 to Tango !


by duke1965 on 14 May 2020 - 05:05

I would NOT make the statement about the rest of the litter, as you are not breeding them now do you, with todays outcrossing culture, its like shooting hail instead of straight bullets, every pup in litter will have very different gene package, so focus on the dog you want to breed with, furthermore, a lot of hips is non genetic so if parents have clean hips its no problem to me

Jenni78

by Jenni78 on 14 May 2020 - 08:05

That would not bother me and I have done it several times. There are certain bloodlines where the majority of dogs are a2 and it is simply the conformation of the pelvis and hips on those dogs. You will see a lot of very similar type if you are fortunate enough to see the actual films.

I have a stud dog who is turning eight this summer and he is A2 And I have had so many breeders tell me he's so gorgeous and they would love to use him if only he had good hips. Lol. These are the same breeders that have a laundry list of embark health testing on their dogs and the dog is really mediocre, has accomplished nothing, and is really not the kind of dog we need more of in the first place. There are many many a2 dogs in my dogs bloodlines. Not every puppy he has produced has been x-rayed, of course, but among those who have been x-rayed the only set that were non-passing earned a unilateral mild. Now, I am definitely in the school of thought that if hip dysplasia were strictly genetic we would have solved it already with selective breeding for so many years, however, there is definitely a genetic predisposition to a certain type joint conformation. Of course, I ask for x-rays to be sent to me whenever possible so I have seen this trend many many times. They are good working hips and they pass. Just for fun, I re x-rayed my dog a few months ago to see how his "not good" hips had done over the last seven and a half years and posted them on Facebook. Absolutely no arthritic changes. The dog is rock solid.

So,my rather roundabout point is that if these dogs are a perfect match for each other and you don't have a history of a lot of non-passing joints, say the rest of the litter didn't pass and only this dog passed, I see no problem with the breeding. I will not breed anything but normal elbows to a fast normal elbow, however. A lot of that is just because in this country OFA doesn't grade elbows so with the pass fail system we have, and the more direct heritability I have seen in elbows, it's a chance I don't take.

I dictated this entire post via Siri while walking dogs and I'm not even reading it so good luck and I hope it helps.

Hundmutter

by Hundmutter on 14 May 2020 - 11:05

Jenni, what sort of records do you try to keep for his offspring, and how they work out for HD / ED ?

Jenni78

by Jenni78 on 14 May 2020 - 13:05

Not sure what you mean by records, hund, as they're all online somewhere- OFA, SV etc. So they're in my addled brain but also easily verifiable, so I haven't really had to resort to record keeping. As far as outside breedings, I don't use him with breeders that I don't keep in touch with. I'm very particular who gets to use him so when their buyers have the x-rays done, so far all of them have forwarded them to me.

Hundmutter

by Hundmutter on 14 May 2020 - 13:05

@ Jenni: What you've described IS your 'record system', good enough for me (I would not want or dare to proscribe for anyone !), but given that the results are in your head, would you say that overall you were satisfied with what sticks in your memory, that you are getting good results generally from what your dog is producing ? Or does anything about those longer term results worry you ?

Jenni78

by Jenni78 on 14 May 2020 - 15:05

I'm not sure what you mean by longer term results and worry. I realize my long post wasn't my best or most coherent work- talk to text- but I did say that in the 4 years I've had him at stud, only one dog has not passed SV or OFA, and that dog had a unilateral mild. So, off the top of my head I cannot tell you how many have been x-rayed, but let's figure on 30% to be conservative- I think it's higher. So if approx 1/3 of each litter is x-rayed and only one in 4 years is non-passing, I'd say that's a good bit better than average if you believe hips are purely genetic. I don't, so I am not going to go crazy bragging about that ;) I will, however, say that it is obvious that he doesn't produce WORSE than average from a genetic standpoint and that A2 hips have certainly been no detriment here.






 


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