Europe Breeders - Page 4

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by apple on 11 December 2019 - 12:12

Clearly, the dog's primary drive is defensive aggression, which is triggered by a threat or perceived threat which creates a feeling of worry in the dog. The goal of defensive aggression is always to make the worry go away. That is what I see the dog doing. His grips are shallow and he doesn't stay on the bite long. He doesn't counter into the bad guy or use his body to fight him. He charges out aggressively, gives a quick bite and releases. He is not committed to fighting. I am not saying he is a bad dog. Part of it could be his training. There is zero pressure on the dog, so I wonder if he would stay engaged if some real pressure was put on him. That is why a dog needs to be balanced with strong prey and defense. The training then can take advantage of a balanced dog's genetics and help the dog develop into the strongest dog his genetics will allow for. I think this dog could easily be run by a decoy with strong presence. Training is secondary to the extent that if the genetics aren't there, training doesn't matter. I don't know if dogs produce identical twins as with people, but for the sake of discussion, if they did and the dog in the video had an identical twin with an identical temperament, a better trainer could make the dog much better at fighting a man.

by duke1965 on 11 December 2019 - 13:12

Apple, if this is your evaluation of the dog in the video posted by Valk, im losing hope for you, clearly you dont understand what is going on there, if you would put a preydog in that scenario with two decoys, he wouldnot come off the first one at all and would be locked in prey/posession, furthermore, we train  policedogs mostly on passive handlers, many criminals hide when cops show up with a dog, dont come running and screaming towards handler and dog, and putting pressure and fighting the dogs, many dogs that work on civil agression increase fight when decoy increases fight, bottom line for me, nice dog in the video, not nervy and or hectic, showing desired work in the scenarios shown in the video

by apple on 11 December 2019 - 13:12

I wasn't talking about a "prey dog." I was talking about a dog more balanced in prey and defense and not so defensive. This dog clearly hasn't been trained so that his defensive thresholds have increased, which further increases confidence in a fight and is accomplished by channeling from prey to defense and back to prey. A balanced dog will bite a passive subject. That goes back to how so many dogs with high prey drive are incorrectly trained by stimulating prey with very active prey movements from the decoy or prey object. A decoy doesn't have to come running and screaming at a dog. I send my dog on a passive decoy almost 100% of the time. It is after the bite that some bad guys will fight and if the dog hasn't been taught to fight or that some people will fight back or kick them in the head before they get a bite, such dogs are likely to go into avoidance. Plus, a goal of training, even in sport, at least for me, is to never set up a dog to be locked in prey.

by duke1965 on 11 December 2019 - 13:12

I give up LOL

by Centurian on 11 December 2019 - 14:12

In response to a few posts back training & genetics .... Superb teachng is based on the recogniton of a the dog's predisotion and innate genetics whereby we merely bring out and channel the all the dog's potential . When we teach a dog , the teaching and genetics complement each other .. , one dictating to the other... ideally . Environment , the influence of learning , effects and affects the behavior of the dog even though genetics may underlie the behavior and govern behavior . Geneticas is not the sole contribution to behavior .

BTW , that is the reason why I say that pup was not for me... I was looking at the predisposition , the bent of that pup, and that did not lend itself a pup for me , the best in what I wanted from the dog and intended to teach the pup. So ..... I lean toward what Apple says ... for defense I saw a limitation with what I could and would do with that pup . ... I could be wrong .. becuase evaluating is in part is subjective . But that was my impression ..

by ValK on 11 December 2019 - 14:12

in second part of video the dog's primary "drive" is to do what he assigned to do - to guard backpack, to stop the "thief", to protect his master. and dog did it exemplary good, without unnecessary nerves, emotions, choleric impulses but quotidianly and naturally.
or as duke said earlier, honestly and natural, without any of that "precision" tinsel. just serious and reliable.
in foundation of such execution not the training by itself but innate nature of this particular dog, which was correctly utilized in training.
you're correct, saying "there weren't fight and pressure" but you absolutely have ignored first part of video with pup.
as i said in initial post - video with pup impressed and did catch my attention. other way i would just skip and forgot it. in pup behavior i saw the potency of future adult dog.

i seen quite different with those pup from border breeding. in fact they never were prey driven dogs. like this Bas in video, they not had interest in inanimated thingy if there aren't involved competition/fight to take it in own possession. you start it as a game but as soon as you rise the tension/resistance, act of game getting more intense and finalized in real aggressive fight, irregardless how young pups are.
as soon as you gave up, they also losing interest to an object of recent fight.
same in regard of maturity. even in this little boy in video can be noticed seriousness, sobriety and reasonableness.
their mental state already was settled very much at 1 year and not much change did occurred after that.

by duke1965 on 11 December 2019 - 15:12

Valk, agree that most lines/dogs in border had low preydrive, but for sure several lines did have good preydrive, Grimm being one for example, also motherline of my dog ajax girmido , gave higher drive, hard dogs , which resulted in the bicolour offspring of ajax having higher drive, but kicking in later, this is ajax pedigree

also my current male has very strong civil agression but also good preydrive and hunt, which can be result of some westline in pedigree, but still is a calm dog with great on/off switch


by ValK on 11 December 2019 - 22:12

duke, i'm not familiar with old czechoslovakian dogs. albeit we did have shared border and quite often had discussions
about their zPS program (particularly i recall lots of talks about wolf mixes). but i never seen or even heard about importing
czech dogs for implementation into breeding. all fresh blood was from DDR's grenztruppen department via agreement for
cooperation and those was already proven adult dogs, who after period of adaptation was deployed on patrol.

looking at pedigree data zPS dogs, i noticed many of them did participate in competitions, trials, got sport titles, etc.
on top of this they were mated to dogs in possession of civilians, which led to question - are they were the true patrol dogs
or just a dogs, produced at zPS kennel and given as reward to civilian participants of breeding program?
i mentioned before, after testing we always been left with rejected dogs and did rehome them and all those dogs was rejected
for a good reason. if i (or any other club member) in need of successor for my aging dog, i need to cheat during the test with
purpose for my chosen youngster to fail and be rejected. without that there was no way to keep best one for himself.
i doubt zPS was given away their best dogs.

by duke1965 on 12 December 2019 - 00:12

if im correct, people could get a zps dog normally when ZPS used an outside stud, owner of stud could get a pup from that breeding, and since dogs in CZ need to be titled to be able to breed, they where trained and titled in sport, dont see a problem with that,even today, many dogs I sell to police is suitable to obtain sport titles, and most of the policedogs in czech republic are trained and titled by the handler at this moment still

by apple on 12 December 2019 - 07:12

If there is no pressure put on the dog, he cannot be properly assessed. I also think his bite mechanics are lacking.


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