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by duke1965 on 10 December 2019 - 14:12

im talking genetics, selected over generations, period


by Centurian on 10 December 2019 - 15:12

Apple ypu do not have to think that thdere is a difference . You are absolutely correct [ as usual :-) ] . Apple many times you have seen me write : in the aspects of behavior and genetic traits , there is a qualitative and a quantitative aspect to each of them . As I have writeten a thousand times in posts ,that in conversations I do not use the word ' DRIVE ' because that word is so limited in description . Better to use ther word : Motivation . Now we can say tyhe dog is has no , has low , has medium or high motivation whether that be created motivation in the dog or motivation that is inherent , 100 % autonomic predisposioned genetic instinct .

The difference is that High and Intense Motivation expressed as a behavior is within Normalcy and so is the dog's mental , pysiological, emotional ,state . This is just the opposite of ' Hyperactivity ' [ a trait related to what in part constitutes a dog's Temperament ] , which is an Abnormal , Mental Physiological state that expresses itself in a behavior. That expressed hyoeractive behavior is therfore an abnormal behavior whereas an intense highly motivated behavior is a behavior that is expressed with the dog having Normal Temperament and normal expression it's temperament/genetics. Hyperactivity implies that the dog's brain ddoes not function normally and there is a deficiency of normalcy within the brain . This is not to be compared to Sporting Breed dogs , because their neurological , hard wired genetics is entrely different that other categories of canines breeds .

Apple again , you are absolutely correct and what you wrote is fact .. nohing to have to think about as far as there being a difference bewteen the two is concerned ..

by duke1965 on 10 December 2019 - 15:12

put ten westgerman lined dogs in the kennel and ten old east lines and you will see just how wrong you are LOL

emoryg

by emoryg on 10 December 2019 - 16:12

NMCBS, I have experience from some of the early DDR dogs that came to the states and I also have a couple dogs that are a mix of the newer DDR, combining some WGWL and others having some Czech.

I was not heavily involved in the DDR dogs in sport competition. I did do some sport work with a DDR female back in the early 90s. I think some dogs did extremely well, but that was not the norm from what I saw. Others may know more about their activity on the sports field. Most of my experience is with their performance in police work.

From a law enforcement perspective, the dogs performed exceptionally well. You will not find too many police officers who actually worked with those dogs, say anything bad about them. I have never met any. A few strong points were their noses and protection work. These dogs were very talented tracking dogs and were on par with any other line in scent detection. They could take considerable pressure on the track, which makes correcting bad behaviors very easy. I should add that it wasn’t just the DDR dogs, but the compatible Czech lines were also well respected for their nosework. I remember doing the bitework on one young Czech dog and just a short time later he had an article in a police dog paper, I think it was USPCA, about tracking down a murder suspect.

Many of these dogs were at their own level in bitework and were extremely effective working the streets. Trainers often joked that the dogs came ready to hit the streets, it was training the handler that took so long. They had good instinctive behaviors which impressed me. One exercise we would do was have the handler attacked by a decoy, and once the dog was on the bite, another decoy would attack the handler. These dogs instinctively abandoned the initial decoy and went to the aid of the handler. With instinctive behaviors, the dog does not need to be trained to protect his handler. These behaviors are rather elusive.

To find a DDR dog who was a tail-chasing, spastastic, whizzy-dizzy, put something in my mouth to chew on or I’ll die, would be very rare. Ironically, when testing dogs I saw an abundance of this in many of the WGWL. I have no use for that type of dog. You are one of a growing number looking to get away from those genetics, including law enforcement. The breeders know they have a problem, so I expect they will once again, many have already, look elsewhere to stabilize their stock.

The current lines I have with DDR are probably a few that have been preserved. Some of the strong points that I like are the instinctive behaviors, desire to please, sharpness and concern that the females carry. I especially like sharp females and they are not so easy to find. Unfortunately, sharpness is often confused with nervy and this desirable trait is all but extinct. The dogs are willing, happy workers, rather I have a toy, food or just a smile on my face. They enjoy my company regardless if I have something they want. Not sure if that was the type of comments you were looking for, but I hope it helps.

Good luck with finding you dog!

by Centurian on 10 December 2019 - 16:12

Duke Was your post in reference to what I had written ?

My first point : you cannot compare WGSL to East german SL old or prresently ... They are two entirely different bents. They are two different subsets genetics in an overall breed . That is not an opinion but a well known fact in present day .

My second point : For all behaviors , which are expressions based upon the dynamics and interaction of genetics and envirnoment/learning , ther is Normal and Abnormal expression of that behavior .... and this goes for Genetic Traits and Attributes as well . Just because on lineage has a lot more intensity and gusto than another does not make the energy filled dog hyperactive. Hyperactivity is not the same as a dog with a very high degree of Energy and Motivation ... There is not just a quantitative component as I had explained but also exiting at ethe same time is a qualitative component to that behavior . If you are satting that ther is a dofference between WGSL and EGWL , of course , but that alone does not make EGWL dog hyperactive .

Hyoeractivity is abnormal , pout of normalcy . Case in point - why is it that children with ADD [ ADHD as someties refered to ] are considered hyperactive and as a treatment they are often treated with meds ? Because their mental processes are out of normal and as a result their behavior also is abnormal ... Now there are many very very high energy children , and they are not diagnosed hyperactive ... beacue you can have very energetic children whose behavior lies within normalcy quantity and quality wise. One expression of this energy is the inablity to concentrate and focus.

Many EGWL may have tremendous gusto and pizzaz , but that alone does not make them hypertactive. Hyperactivity is abormal .. So- all the dogs that are full of gusto ... all those EGWL , are we going to label them are all hyperactive and abnormal - I don't think so ... Are we going to call all children that have tremondous energy hyperactive ? As a matter of fact .. many of the children that I have seen and that had been diagnosed as ADD were not truly ADD !! They were misdoiagnosed and the sad part they were put on meds !!

Duke I think you and I agree that many people have dogs , thatn they are simply not capable of handling...
people that .

Duke one last commen fro every one to understand : We have had many discussions in this same respectalso about AGGRESSION . Many professionals do not understand the Normal quantity and quality of Aggression that a dog should have and what constitutes Abnormal Aggression in those respects . Aggression- similar notion as hyperactivity , just a different Temperament Trait !! Unfortunately what I write is not opinion , this is elementary fact that any experienced canine person understands .

by duke1965 on 10 December 2019 - 17:12

apple bringing in poor training is absolute a wrong assumption, same as in agression, civil, on off switch, etc, some people think everything is to blame on, or to solve with training SMH

by ValK on 10 December 2019 - 18:12

duke1965
we had the discussion this week with some people about difference in kennel behaviour and ability to be not worked for two weeks versus nowadays lines dogs that freak out if you dont let them work for a few days

spot on duke but it's useless try to explain for those who never seen those dogs.
about a year ago i bumped into short video with 3 month old pup. pup so much impressed me and did remind past border pups that i went into search for more about him. i found few more videos. one of those has same pup but at age 3 y.o. and absolutely confirmed my expectation on what i saw and expected in first video with 3 month pup. i merged two clips into one.
very nice dog. i wish the breeders bring into this world more dog like this Bas, instead of pumping out hyped brainless idiots whose purpose in life only to chase freaking ball.

 



Western Rider (admin)

by Western Rider on 10 December 2019 - 18:12

Very nice to bad there aren't more being produced would love to own several of this kind


by duke1965 on 11 December 2019 - 00:12

Valk, multiple dogs I bred from old lines matured late, developed drives later on etc, which makes it harder to sell to the people who want pups to have famous daddy first, and want 8 weeks pups to bite everything and hang from a rag like a pittbull

so I understand that many people choose to breed dogs from which pups are easy sellable

other thing is that LE in more and more countrys will not buy dogs anymore that will only work in prey, and desire for balanced, civil dogs is growing for some time already, so hopes are up LOL

nonetheless, there are still some people breeding these older types and I see them on regular bases, just sold some awesome young males to USA which where almost to good to let go, one is Harry z tresnaku, old czech and DDR lines and a bit west, now with police, and secondly Dyk Fihrak, mostly old czech lines, who is one of the nicest balanced dogs with great on/off switch, personally owned in USA for PSA and PP

also many young dogs from my male, who is old (czecho)Slovak lines are showing great balance, calm down quick, are easy in the house and on the handler, and have good civil agression and drives, so great workingdogs, but in the same time great familydogs and kennelbehaviour

so there is still some hope 


Western Rider (admin)

by Western Rider on 11 December 2019 - 01:12

Duke glad to hear you have this kind of dog. Come Spring Summer I may be ready and give you a call.






 


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