GSDCA vs USCA - Page 2

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by Cutaway on 10 September 2019 - 19:09

@benzi - IPO isnt offered anymore thru FCI, when FCI changed the rules this year they also changed the name to IGP. Most UScA clubs still offer the IGP at their trials plus you can always contact them to ask if they will offer IPO titles and they generally will get it added to their event authorization. Most USA judges are not SV Approved, UScA has 5 i think that are SV/USCA: Craig Groh, Ernest Hinz, Nathaniel Roque, Bill Szentmiklosi, Carla Griffith. I believe Canada has a few that are both SV/GSSCC. So AD's earned under these non German Judges will still qualify for a breed survey...

It's odd that i know anything about the Show Side of this stuff, i just happen to get unlucky enough to have to assist clubs with putting on conformation shows way too much What Smile

by Rik on 10 September 2019 - 22:09

benzi, most breed (maybe all) breed surveys/conformation shows offered by the working arm of the GSDCA are officiated by SV judges and recognized by the SV. I am not really up to date.

there are other requirements such as hip/elbow that must be done to requirements.

just get started with whatever club is available to you. by the time your dog is trained, you will have a lot of it sorted out.

best to you and your dog,



by VonTrula on 10 September 2019 - 23:09

@Rik just sparked another question that is along the lines of clubs and hips/elbows.

(This is my first GSD, if you can't tell, and my first go around with competition)

I thought that the standard thing to do was to get your dog's hips/elbows OFA tested. But I noticed on the USCA website that they require an "a stamp." You have to be a member of the USCA to view any additional information about the "a stamp" on their website ( What is the "a stamp" and how does it differ from an OFA certification? Why does their need to be a different form of hip/elbow certification at all? Is OFA not accountable enough?


by TIG on 11 September 2019 - 00:09

Cutway You have given a bunch of incorrect info. Just two -

1.AKC while not a FCI member is the FCI recognized registry in the US. Always has been and most likely always will be. The two club issue has been around since the 70s or 80s and GSDCA has out politiced the USCA ( and no I am not a fan of theirs just a realist). The WUSV  historically had a 1 club per country rule that first got broken by US because GSDCA initially could not get & wasn't interested in getting AKC to allow bite work by it's member clubs. Battaglia has been working for 40 years to make GSDCA the one and only "parent" club in the US again and pretty much has all his ducks in line.  BUT there was/is a major problem  which leads me to your other blatant mistake 

2. Recognition of US/ Can judges by the SV and the use of actual SV judges for US trials.

Re use of German/ European SV Judges the SV laid down the law - place nice together or you don't get to use our judges

But the other problem was even tho the hi-line folks in Germany smoozed w the gsdca folks the reality was it had no effective working dog presence (something like 4-6 judges and a handful of clubs that way back when had been shuffled off to the WDA to appease AKC). The working dog people in this country supported USCA and other breed specific clubs and a few support DVG which is a whole nother kettle of fish.

Because of the bitterness tween the two organizations a melding of the two seemed to have a snowball's chance in hell - but- someone (perhaps JG?) had a stroke of genius. A few years back he negotiated w the SV to give SV recognition status to ALL then current USCA judges. So when a merge is forced upon us ( wh is highly likely) the uscac working side will have a place at the table because they have the members (more than gsdca I believe), the working clubs ( may be less in # to the akc clubs who are members of the gsdca) and most importantly a lock on the vast majority of trial judges in the US - Judges the SV has recognized.

Btw the 1 club 1 country rule was a WUSV rule and they have a very good reason for wanting it back - RSV2000 which has btw been recognized by the FCI.

There were some other errors but I'm short on time so hopefully someone else will catch them.


by Cutaway on 11 September 2019 - 00:09

@TIG - Well that's a bummer what information have i given that is incorrect? I am happy to be educated and will promptly admit it if I am wrong. I dont take any of this personal. Did you read the last letter from the FCI to WUSV dated August 9th in regards to Paragraph 7 Section 1 membership? I keep trying to post here but i get a '405 Not allowed' message 

2. Recognition of US/ Can judges by the SV and the use of actual SV judges for US trials

I'm not sure what your saying i am wrong at here? Not all UScA judges are 'SV' approved when it comes to AD. SV does recognize GSDCA & UScA judges for working titles, training certificates and BH-VT (all BH's i believe not just the VT), not show titles and not the AD.

RSV2000 which has btw been recognized by the FCI

I like the RSV2000 but are they not still in a legal battle in Germany with the SV? Or did that just get setteled? AND doesnt the RSV also use the same breeding criteria as the SV? I know that Helmut believes that you should breed a female first to see if she's a producer before you put effort into getting her titled (he's said that on many occassions publicy)

And isnt there something going on right now the American DVG? Somthing about American DVG judges not being recognized and titles not being recognized? As a matter of fact, didnt Andrea Dugan (head of the GSSCC judges) send out communication that titles awarded by American DVG judges wouldnt be recognized?



by TIG on 11 September 2019 - 01:09


The long and short of it is there are two ponds in the US plus a few small puddles - AHBA, ASCA, UKC.

The best reality- enjoy them all. They each offer things the others don't.  A Sch dog can track in AKC in fact their higher levels can be much more difficult . AKC, ASCA, UKC offer obedience along similar lines but know a # of Dogs that compete in Ipo/IGA also. Just learn the differences and train for them. A U.D is a challenge.

AHBA, USca,ASCA,AKC - herding most to least favorite  plus the bc folks.

Similar re the show side. Most hi-lines these days could compete in AKC breed specialty show the style is not that dissimilar.  Then there are the all breed akc show wh often  present a more moderate style of dog. Again some rule & presentation differences not hard to learn. 

The Gsdca also has some good recognition  programs you can look up on their site- Performance Award Of Merit (PAM), ATAA etc.

Usca has the Sch3 club. Asca offers the WiTCH (Working trial champion).

So go splashing in all the ponds & puddles. You and your dogs will have lots of fun.


by Cutaway on 11 September 2019 - 01:09

VonTrula I whish i could give TIG recent post a big thumbs up.... The reality is it takes a lot of training to get your dog to title in just about all venues and your foundation training will provide a solid framework for whatever you do!!! If sport is more in line with what you want to accomplish than your best bet is to find a club that is close to you, you get along with the members and you like the style of training they do. 

As you progress thru your journey, you will find an organization that offers you the best chances to get where you want to go, dont get bogged down in the doggie politics too early on


by Hundmutter on 11 September 2019 - 06:09

"Most hi-lines these days could compete in AKC speciality shows" - but would their exhibitors WANT to ???
Seems to me that might be seen by most as a backward step.

UK situation slightly different 'cos KC Show scene still supported by a lot of 'Germanic' exhibitors, as well as the 'Alsatianists' (ASL equivalent); even down to two sets of judges depending on type preference. But with the additional, independent, Regional shows structure here now we may be gradually moving away from that ridiculous two-faceted system.

Shall we just say that the breeders who support the Regional set-up are the ones doing AD, BH, Surveys, IGP, some (who can afford it) sending dogs to compete in Germany, as well as looking at conformation seriously (whatever the lack of will to alter the modern 'shape' of the dog, and whether or not that is really as deleterious to function as some believe). The people who only show under the KC are, generally, not.

by Rik on 11 September 2019 - 10:09

von trula, in regards to your question on hips/elbows. yes I do think OFA is just as legitimate as other certifications. that's just my opinion.

the OP seemed interested in breed survey, titles etc and each organization has requirements that must be met as to how these procedures are performed.

something may have changed, like I said I am not up to date. The way it was, xrays had to be done to SV requirements and submitted to the SV through the recognized club for certification. I don't even know what the Working Arm of the GSDCA is called now since the WDA blew itself up.

I am just saying that if the OP is interested in SV recognition, then they will have to become familiar with the requirements of SV and follow them explicitly.

there are people here very familiar with these requirements in the U.S. and hopefully will provide better answers than I have.


oops, VT, just noticed you are the original poster. anyway good luck and the best way to learn is to do and keep asking questions.

by apple on 11 September 2019 - 10:09

Sounds like a lot of rules, requirements, programs, organizations, etc., but nothing that contributes to the improvement of the breed with the possible exception of RSV2000.


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