Combining showline and working line - Page 1

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by xPyrotechnic on 11 June 2019 - 17:06

I remember reading posts from ages ago regarding this and that they two types have separated so far apart that it would be useless to combine those two lines, however i came across a Finnish or Swedish breeder not sure, they go by the kennel name Vargfjells and the dogs that they have for example Vargfjells O'Kim has some excellent dogs in his bloodline such as Lord vom Gleisdereick and others.

Whilst looking at the other dogs they have bred they look nothing like the showlines of today although they have a lot of showlines in their pedigree. Some of their dogs also end up as police dogs which i was surprised i though that police dogs had to only have working line pedigrees. So my question is would combining both lines (if done correctly) be able to produce dogs that are good enough to be police dogs.

by duke1965 on 11 June 2019 - 18:06

possible, but you would have to put strong selection on both the showlines, and the workingline dogs you would use for that, I did such combination once, producing some great dogs and some great pets

if one wants to continue after F1 and or F2 generation, good things are possible

by johan77 on 11 June 2019 - 18:06

Where do you see all these showlines in their dogs? All I can see is some influence of older showdogs far back so probably nothing that would effect the present dogs when they have selected for workingability.

by Centurian on 11 June 2019 - 20:06

No .... Pont blank no . This is way to late now to be avble to satisfy both camps . We past the tipping point genetically in current day . Once the working traits are lost in a line , you can never put them back . Theoretically people will argue yes you can .. But this is not entirely so . At this point you wil get something different. All the theoretically and efforts will not accomplish what the GS once was. Besides , the SL in current day is just about a whole different breed , genetically thatb is from prior to the split . Maybe what the outcome will be , resembles a GS but is will not be what the GS was decades ago. You will sacrifice something in the working line and also you will sacrifice something in the show line and get nothing better than either .
20 years ago I had a SL X WL but the rift although definitive could be bridged with some , at times some , good results. And not entirely predictable back then too . . Currently they have drifted to far apart for this crossing to result in BOTH a good working dog with the magnificent structure as I once had. The GS cross I had , was high V rating in structure and at 1 year old did a police demo off collar . Back then , 20 - 15 years ago . That was what a cross could potentially produce . But it won't today ...
If you talk with the most influential breeders in the world . Those that are the top of the breeding, either SL or WL , they will tell you the same as I have written .. I know... because I already have had many discussions with them ....

by duke1965 on 12 June 2019 - 03:06

centurian, I see better civil agression in some showlines in czech republic than in most workinglines overhere LOLLOLLOL

by duke1965 on 12 June 2019 - 03:06

by Hundmutter on 12 June 2019 - 06:06

Also depends to some extent on what you personally (and those enthusiasts around you) see as that 'magnificent structure' Centurian speaks of.  Some American show breeders' "magnificent" conformation of the 70s/80s is very much NOT my 'magnificent' of ... ever ! And I suspect not Centurian's, either.  And yet there have also been many Working specimens down the years that have conformed to a physical structure I (as someone primarily involved with [European] Showdogs initially) would find perfectly acceptable.  Many others however that have not. On BOTH sides of the Atlantic.  Realise I am only talking about the phenotype here, but you cannot always judge a book by its cover ...

by Gustav on 12 June 2019 - 11:06

Scandinavian ( especially Swedish ) breeders have mixed the lines, ( show and working prior to 1990, and then the DDR and Czech dogs after 1990), for many years. After 1990, they decreased significantly the use of the better working show lines, and infused the DDR and Czech dogs with their already established lines. Especially in their dogs that the LE depts draw from. Now in past 10 years the dogs competing in international IPO have had stronger infusions of the top high prey European winners that is needed to give characteristics to compete in top sport.

by Centurian on 12 June 2019 - 12:06

Hundmutter ... you are right in your thinking . The standard and preference that I reference is either a top V rated or the VA rated structure as seen in the Bundessiger Show in Germany . That is the structure and benchmark for me . When I purchase or wish to breed a show line for myself , I do not even look at , consider or accpet as a puppy candidate even , anything less than that caliber . Most working lines , at least in the USA , will not contribute to a show line GS that will result in the betterment of structure of that SL and that will get you to that top rating .. VA that is the structure of dog that I prefer and not less when . Although I also have had working lines too . And the flip also : there are , in the USA Show line that I would ever consider breeding to my working line. The SL working propensityhas been so diluted that is is a crying shame. What I will tell you , is that many friends of mine SV VA Judges at that , when they breed for a top VA prospect.. and believe me they quite seriously do , they do not have in their plans to cross breed SL X WL specimens . PS- my standards for the Working Lines are just as high too as I also have had several top WL GS .

Gustav .. I had stated almost 20 years ago that an exceptional , SL X WL was possible .. But I will ask , in current day how reliable and predictable an result can one make with a SL X WL breeding whereby the progeny will excel in working and structure ? The aim is to have a 'plan' with reasonable predictable results. One breeding out of thousands of breedings to get one good result IMOp is not a great breeding program . And I accept what you wrote about the dogs ' competing in IPO ' [ for the moment as I did not follow DRR or Czech breedings] , but what I want to know , what about their structure .. has it improved , will it get / did it , get that dog to the top ratings of the Show Ring too ? . Because the two dogs [ SL X WL ] will get offspring , but something will get lost one way or the other. So I want to know specifically what lines in show, crosedd with WL had progeny that maintinened the same show rating level and structure , and whose progeny made it to the winner IPO podiums ? I would be also intertested to know which former IPO podium winner , who was crossed with SL , has progeny that has brought them to the IPO podium and also the high V or VA rating at the Bundessieger Show ?

If this has become common place and a norm , then I will stand corrected I will realize that I missed something through the years. Again , I have not followed DDR or Czech breedings through the last 10 -15 years and I humbly would be glad to become more knowledgeable and educated in this respect .. I always try to learn ...

by Centurian on 13 June 2019 - 02:06

An addendum : why do people , show line as well as working line breeders , and in my opinion way to much for my liking , line breed ? Also anyone that understands the GS in regards to SL and WL realizes they have drifted so far apart , that in respects they just about have become two different seperate breeds. Why then the motivation to cross the two , SL/ WL ? Just Saying ....... So , If you want to cross SL and WL all that I can say without any intention to be sarcastic : Good Luck ...

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