Long Stock coat genetics? - Page 1

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khalirey

by khalirey on 05 August 2018 - 15:08

I got into a discussion with a trainer this morning and he claimed that when breeding a Long Stock Coat to a Long Stock Coat you can still get stock coat pups. I disagreed based on the fact that both parents are recessive and when bred they will always transfer one LSC gene to the pups giving them 2 genes and therefore 100% of the litter will be LSC. Am I missing something because he was pretty adamant that I was wrong in my thinking?

Thanks in advance.

Hundmutter

by Hundmutter on 05 August 2018 - 17:08

You are correct. However ... genetics is a funny old business. And so is "human / breeders' error". There are dogs in the world who ARE genetically long coated - but can 'pass' as stock coats. [WITHOUT having been scissored !] The point being that one could be used in a 'mixed' mating and because they carry the gene will actually produce only L/C dogs with a LSH mate; or SOME pups that are LSH when half of a supposedly all-stock coat mating. The key is not the INHERITANCE of the gene but in the EXPRESSION of that gene.

Current research on genetics shows that there are factors to do with the 'switching' On and Off of specific genes or combinations of genes which can lead to erratic results, at the small scale (ie individual litters), so it IS possible - though statistically speaking unlikely - that the Trainer has seen a pup or two from a particular source where the LSH gene is present in both parents (and apparently goes back to earlier generations of grandparents etc), and the occasional pup is among these 'masked' examples, because one or more ancestors has also been a dog which 'passed' as stock coated, possibly because it came from a 'mixed' mating where it inherited BOTH long and stock genes but something has caused the 'dominance' of the LSH gene to become 'switched off'. I hope I have explained that correctly. I am not a geneticist. Anyway, this could account for your Trainer being so adamant in their belief.

Conversely, of course, there is also a possibility  that in certain matings more than one stud dog has been involved !

If you study some examples of stock coated dogs against some examples of LSH dogs, there is clearly occasional confusion as to which is which, especially at certain stages in their development. Actual LENGTH of coat, as distinct from some of the tell-tale signs that the dog is long coated ( e.g. hair inside the ears) varies considerably in the GSD - some peoples' semi-long coated is sombody elses' "plush" coat.

by Nans gsd on 05 August 2018 - 17:08

NOT sure about the GSD but in collies two  rough (long coats) CAN produce smooth or short coats, sooo; wait for further response, may sunsilver will let us know. I think the GSD can still produce short coats or stock coats. Nan

khalirey

by khalirey on 05 August 2018 - 18:08

Thanks Hundmutter! I appreciate the detailed response. I can see how when 2 studs are used you can get a stock coat if the other stud is a stock coat. I do work with a genetics based business and was a little taken aback by his claims thinking that I was missing something. If I am to believe that LSC is purely a recessive gene then an exclusive breeding of the 2 will always make LSC.

However of there are other genes at play, dominant or incomplete dominant then they too may express themselves as well in the mix. Am I correct to assume that stock coat is a dominant gene?

Also thanks Nan! Is the rough coat gene recessive?

by Nans gsd on 05 August 2018 - 20:08

Not sure but in some cases it almost has to be a recessive. DUT??
Hundmutter

by Hundmutter on 05 August 2018 - 21:08

@khalirey, long coats were always assumed to be caused by an autosomal recessive gene, both in GSDs and many other breeds.(Willis, et al.) Because the long coated GSD used to be treated as non-Standard, there were not too many L/C to L/C breedings among  those litters being produced by people who wanted to stick to the Standard, breeding to comply with it and for exhibition etc.  So it was difficult to study in the large numbers which might have confirmed that. Limited study did tend to suggest it was so.

I do not myself know whether any progress has been made on the formal study of this in recent years; the Internet has information if you have time to search for it (try a variety of GSD Groups online). By extrapolation, the Stock (LL) coat gene is Dominant - but personally I have never seen any test specifically to prove that,  though that is not to say there has never been one. Perhaps the studies on the canine genome will provide clearer information in due course.

 

However, people who just breed because fluffy "GSD's" (no matter what else the pups carry genetically or whether they look "to the Standard" or not) sell better than short coated ones, have always had a few more long coat to long coat matings, they just never got counted into research so readily; and if you just want plenty of long coats to sell, you don't have to put 2 L/C dogs together, you can get a high ratio with one L/C parent and one that is 'L l ', whether or not the coat is expressed as LSH in the second parent.  So they increased the 'natural' percentage in the breed from around 12% to 20%+.  Now we can enter them in Shows, my guess is there will be far more L/C to L/C breeding in future.

susie

by susie on 05 August 2018 - 21:08

I never ever saw a stock coat pop up out of coated parents - and for me this seems to be impossible due to current genetic knowledge.

As far as I understand genetics aNY "masking" is only possible if the dog actually does carry the genetic possibility for this attribute at all.

Not too seldom people declare genetical stock coats, the so called "plush coats", as "long" coats - and voilà - some stock coats in the litter...no wonder.

Breeding long coat to stock coat within SV is not allowed - good or bad? I don't know - but I am no fan of breeding for coats at all...
khalirey

by khalirey on 05 August 2018 - 22:08

@susie I find it interesting that LC cannot be bred to SC. Can SC be bred to LC within SV? I've seen many LC to SC breedings in Serbia. Am I safe to assume that they are not part of the SV?

susie

by susie on 05 August 2018 - 22:08

Sire/dam - dam/sire doesn't matter, genetically seen no difference.

Serbia is member of WUSV (anos.org), BUT a lot of the single breeders are no members of anos at all.
Hundmutter

by Hundmutter on 05 August 2018 - 23:08

I'm not entirely sure, now that LSH are 'allowed' as a second & equal coat type, for Show purposes, whether the SV / WUSV rules will still apply - there may be a change ahead on that point ? Anyway, that's all fine & good in Germany where the VDH listens to the WUSV, maybe nobody breeds a L/C with a Stock coat ever (at least where they care about Registration, Korung, etc), but I can assure Susie that there are Stocks being mated to Longs all over Europe and beyond, outside Germany, wherever the country has its own Kennel Club and therefore does not have to subscribe to the FCI and therefore WUSV rule structure.  I know even of Show kennels in the UK where long coats (or dogs known to carry L/C) have been used on one side of matings because the breeders KNOW that not all their pups will be bought by 'Show' homes interested in the precise demands of the standard, and they KNOW the fluffy puppies, if they have longcoats in the litter (s), will sell to pet buyers, quick as a flash. We do not have to record whether a dog is longcoated for Registration purposes, so who is to know if this is done ? All of which is quite apart from the 'driver error' of thinking a dog you are using is a Stock coat when it is actually a (not very long !) coat ...


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