DM or CE? - Page 1

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by Jenni78 on 22 April 2018 - 16:04

Found a great video showing how similar they can look...a lot of people I know would look at this dog and say he has DM.

He does not. He has CE. I get a lot of negative feedback when I push for a diagnosis other than DM and the reason I do it because DM is a diagnosis of exclusion, and there is no cure. I am hesitant to accept that for a dog, because if I am wrong, then the dog could be missing out on treatment for a curable condition. My own dog was diagnosed with DM and I fought it and I was right. Took thousands of dollars and had a few vets telling me I was in denial, but my dog had CE, not DM. I shudder to think of all the dogs put down for "DM" that wasn't DM at all.

by Nans gsd on 22 April 2018 - 19:04

So Jen are you saying there IS a cure for CE: and maybe if people would stop using initials we would all know what they are talking about. Of course I am familiar with DM but CE?? Let's hope there is a cure. Thx Nan

by hexe on 22 April 2018 - 20:04

CE= Cauda equina syndrome. Can be alleviated surgically, unlike DM.

by Hundmutter on 23 April 2018 - 06:04

Cauda Equina can be painful, can it not ? I would have said the dog in the video was crouching while moving because he was experiencing pain. Presence of pain would rule out DM. Apart from I don't think that looks typical of movement in any DM case I've ever seen.

by dogbyte on 23 April 2018 - 21:04

Having had a dog with DM, and one with a motor neuron issue that only affected the rear legs, I can tell you there is a huge difference between the 2. The pain is the most obvious. And the progression with the DM. Xara, blood tested through the University of Florida and Dr Clemmons was M/M. Dr Clemmons did research on DM in GSDs decades before the University of Missouri. Just with little to no funding. Jaden tested clear for DM. Xara's progressed like my late father's ALS. It moved to her front legs, affected her swallowing and somewhat her breathing. She was a happy girl still when we set her free. Jaden's stayed in his back legs, progressing almost evenly with both.

by hexe on 23 April 2018 - 23:04

dogbyte, unless you had a necropsy done on Jaden, it's impossible to say he didn't have DM--that's presently the ONLY definitive test for DM. Many of us here are quite familiar with DM and with Dr. Clemmons' work--my first GSD was one of the dogs used in Dr. Clemmons' video on DM in GSDs, as an example of a dog that was at the midpoint of progression.

Personally, I remain unconvinced that the testing developed by U of Missouri is valid for degenerative myelopathy in GSDs--their hypothesis is based on there being a relation between ALS and DM, but ALS is caused by the loss of actual nerve cells, whereas DM is the result of the destruction of the myelin sheath that insulates and protects the nerve fibers.

Hundmutter, yes, cauda equina syndrome is typically associated with pain, which is most easily detected by attempting to lift or otherwise manipulate the dog's tail. Too often, vets are quick to diagnose a dog's problem as DM simply because said dog is a GSD, and isn't improving with rest and an anti-inflammatory, unfortunately. U of Missouri's test aside, a diagnosis of DM in a living dog remains one of rule-outs of other possible causes.

by DuganVomEichenluft on 25 April 2018 - 12:04

Thank you for the topic Jenni.
I hadn't heard of CE before.

by apple on 25 April 2018 - 13:04

I read an article years ago by Helmut Raiser that said the Germans were unknowingly selecting dogs with CE because they would bark intensely in the B&H, but they were doing it out of pain. He said if you looked, they would not fully sit. I think he was referring to the working lines, even though he has been very critical of the German high lines.

by GSCat on 25 April 2018 - 13:04

Unfortunately, the surgery is very expensive. When a previous GSD had this, the least expensive quote I got was $10,000-$11,000 (for both the CE and another disc surgery at the front end to be done at the same time) :-( And then there is therapy after the surgery :-( I hope the price has gone down, but this is a good reason to have insurance (or a giant pet savings account)

A much cheaper alternative is a doggie wheelchair, except if the dog also has a degenerating front end, as mine did :-( :-( :-(

What I am wondering is since they are now injecting adult stem cells into humans for a wide variety of conditions such as shoulder and disc problems, with great success, if the same type of therapy might reverse/cure DM, CE, etc.


by hexe on 25 April 2018 - 16:04

GSCat, while the surgery for CE isn't cheap, if one shops around it can be done for far less that $10K.

It is important to note that the longer surgery is delayed for CE, the more post-surgical physical therapy will be needed afterwards, and the less successful the surgery itself may be.

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