Titles vs pedigree on parents when choosing pup - Page 4

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susie

by susie on 14 February 2018 - 19:02

ValK, I asked the same question before on this board, but I never got an answer - are the HD ratings of East and West Germany comparable at all, or did DDR rate different ???
What kind of X-rays did they use? Who decided? What have been the criterias? What did they call "HD free' ??? Which dogs are hidden behind the numbers?

Off topic right now, but I really would like to know..

by ValK on 14 February 2018 - 23:02

susie you know i never was in breeding business and can't answer that questions, beside generalized points.

1. breed regulations unlike in West, in DDR was set and monitored by government body.

2. the standard was set toward practical usefulness of dogs for real life applications. there were "sub-product" in breeding but main target was to minimize such.

3. in East GSDs (and other breeds for that matter) never been viewed as commodity thus there never existed lobbying for any private or corporate interests, whose could grant exeption and allow "easy pass" through established system.

as for HD test, i can only speculate. the dog's bones are similar, regardless of geo-location. for dogs, to do assigned to them work in best possible performance, the dogs shouldn't have any physical or mental flaws. so due to social approach to GSD role and purposes, most likely DDR standard was much tougher. at least before my introduction to western type of GSD and spread of internet in masses, i haven't seen dysplastic GSDs and such issue never have been topic of our discussions.

by Gustav on 15 February 2018 - 18:02

No Duke, I didn’t advise to go by pedigree, I said “I” go by pedigree.
This is only what I do, I think I also added a disclaimer that actually said I didn’t think folks should do as I do.
@ Valk....NOTHING is “ totally true” in terms of dog evaluations....but some things have greater probabilities than others. An excellent dog of quality seldom produces a majority of pups that possess his excellence....so when you go to see a dog without pedigree knowledge which pup is the dog and what are odds ( against others in litter) of the dog you are looking at producing that dog’s excellence. Just trying to figure this out??

by Mfundo on 15 February 2018 - 22:02

Puppies are not born with titles, but genetics. Breeders don't work with titles but bloodlines and genetics. Titles are earned - you train for that. The best pedigree won't give you titles if you don't train. Many Champions have produced offspring that's spending their lives laying on the couch, Be careful of the illusion of Champion puppies - the Father or Mother is the champion NOT THE PUPPY. Only good genetics, lots of training, and good nutrition will give you a champ
susie

by susie on 16 February 2018 - 17:02

Mfundo, breeders may "work with genetics" - but show me one breeder who breeds a faulty/2 faulty dogs by choice ( be it working ability, conformation, health ), only because the pedigree is "outstanding". Nobody with some mind will do so..
Not that difficult to x-ray, not even that difficult to evaluate conformation, but what about proof of working ability in the backyard only?
As soon as time and work is involved a lot of people start to believe...

ValK, thank you for your answer, but it doesn't help. When you take a look at the Parchimer Land homepage, DDR distinguished between
HD free
Mild HD

Medium HD
Severe HD

Whereas SV distinguishes between
HD normal
HD almost normal
HD allowed
Mild HD
Medium HD
Severe HD

I need to know how to compare those ratings - in case the DDR "HD free" covers up all 3 "allowed" SV ratings there is no difference at all.
Did you never x-ray one of your dogs? In case you did you should know.

by ValK on 17 February 2018 - 21:02

Gustav, please pay more attention in comparison chart on quantity of produced offsprings.

line 1 -  DDR sire, total 477 pups, 430 of which HD-free

line 1 - SV sire, total... ? using approximation to HD-free 60% (431), another 360 pups wasn't good but nevertheless was used in following breeding only for reason of promoted name of sire.

if some of those 360, did end in your breeding program, this perhaps could explain your rejection of advantage of genetics evaluation.

 

susie if you go back to chart on page 3 you'll see those 4 grading for HD - A, B, C and D. only dogs with grade "A"(zuerkannt) was allowed for reproduction.

if you interesting in such topic, you should get Werner Dalm's book "Die Zucht des Deutschen Schäferhundes in der ehemaligen DDR -  Eine geschichtlich-fachliche Betrachtung".

 

here is another chart of hip improvement over 20 years of use DDR system of exeptional reproductive grants, based on mandatory evaluation.

An image


susie

by susie on 17 February 2018 - 22:02

ValK, you don't get my point.
DDR = 4 ratings
SV = 6 ratings
How to compare them?

Leicht/mittel/schwer -
The same names in both cases,
the same criterias, too?

The visible difference :
DDR had one rating for HD free,
SV has normal/fast normal/noch zugelassen.

In case the ratings leicht/mittel/schwer are the same You have to compare
HD frei (DDR) with normal+fast normal+noch zugelassen (SV).

Guess, I really need to buy Dalm's book.
Although there are several DDR dog breeders they don't seem to know the basics, or they don't care to share their knowledge.
Jessejones

by Jessejones on 17 February 2018 - 22:02

@Valk, thanks for Dalm’s book tip. I just ordered it.
@Susie what you are saying makes sense. I wonder if the breeders/Bürokraten in the DDR were under government pressure to show good results? Maybe better than they actually were?

by duke1965 on 18 February 2018 - 17:02

Jessejones, some government breedingprograms today pass some shitdogs to keep passing their minimum desired score, just to keep the program alive and funding going

by ValK on 18 February 2018 - 20:02

susie, may i ask you - when SV did expand grade HD-free to 2 more additional and what arguments was behind of such move?

Jessejones, what makes you think so? i mentioned above, in East block dogs wasn't considered to be valuable commodity. people, involved with service dogs breeding/training, did it voluntarily. in all cases governments did provide facilities for clubs charge free.



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