Questions about importing! - Page 2

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by DuganVomEichenluft on 02 January 2018 - 18:01

On the other side of the spectrum, money talks. A lot of the times, a large amount of money, can buy the "cream" dog. I've seen it many times. Another thing to remember is, our "needs" are different that Germany, Netherlands, etc. Their version of the very best, may be different than ours. A lot of the dogs over there are not beloved house companions. They are strictly working dogs, then kenneled. Also, just because a dog is not the very best, doesn't mean it's not breedable.
But I do agree with you all. Don't buy outside of the USA unless you have a broker you trust do so for you. IMO, there are few reasons to import a dog. It sounds, in your case, there is NO reason to other than to say you imported. Which, to me, is silly. I can name several amazing breeders right here in the USA that could deliver a GSD that is to standard.

"I just started breeding GSD’s recently and have gotten flack for not having german import dogs."

This statement says it all. If you just started and by your post, you are very unfamiliar with lineage and what lineage works with another. I highly suggest you do more research with friendly people who can guide you in the correct direction based on what lineage GSDs you have.



by Sunsilver on 02 January 2018 - 20:01

Okay, folks, when I first got into the breed, the hardest thing for me was finding someone who could mentor me and answer all the thousands of questions I had. It seems the OP hasn't had much luck with this. (Neither did I - most of what I learned was learned the hard way. This board was a big help, though, but I never did really find a mentor. )

There are a LOT of knowledgeable people on this board. How about some of you stepping up to the plate to mentor this poster, or help him/her find someone who is willing to answer questions without being snarky and condescending?

I have been around awhile, and I have seen a LOT of people cheated when they import dogs. That is probably the most common complaint I see on this board. The dog didn't arrive. They took my money and no dog. Or the dog arrived and there are no papers. Or they sent a dog different from the one described. A thousand variations on the theme...

So, unless you can find a broker whom you can trust 100%, and who knows exactly what you are looking for, you are MUCH better off to buy locally. Chasing down someone who's cheated you is extremely hard when they live an ocean away, in a country with different laws, and speak a foreign language. It's much easier when they at least live in the same country!

When you buy a dog, the LEAST important thing should be its country of origin. Much more important is it temperament, health and overall suitablility for the job you want it to do.



by susie on 02 January 2018 - 20:01

Sun, the "normal" way to learn about this wonderful breed is by training, titling, showing dogs by yourself = competing.
Nobody should start a "breeding program" without getting knowledge by learning through handling for at least a couple of years.
The only way to earn respect in the "SV world" is by successful training, titling, showing - takes a couple of years-so what?
And as by product : in case you are able to trial and show your American bred dogs, the respect and help will even increase...
No need to import, just the need to proof the breedworthiness of your dogs, and the mindset of you...

Only as a sidenote: NO Serious breeder will sell you the best puppy, neither German nor American; the "keepers" are the future of any successful breeding program. It's about visions, not about money ( € 800 in Germany for a puppy, and a lot of expensive requirements you don't even want to think about = puppies don't make money over here, but we do breed- guess, why ??? ).
Only a "puppy producer" won't care to whom he sells  which pup...


by Sunsilver on 02 January 2018 - 21:01

Totally agree, Susie. That's likely the first thing a mentor will tell this person. Having someone to help you along the way is certainly not a bad thing. There are a lot of mistakes I made that I could have avoided if I'd had the advice of a more experienced person.

by yogidog on 02 January 2018 - 21:01

Susie sent you pm thanks

by Centurian on 03 January 2018 - 00:01

Sunsilver and Susie I commend you both of a good commentary .
They both have very valid points and something I discuss with my European conterparts. In USA there is lacking for a number of reasons , mentoring ! [ Not just the GS , I see this throughout all aspects of life , ] There is a bit of lack of interest in Europe toowith the younger generation . My speculation has to do with people wanting instant gratification , the dire impact by technology . And probably a few more reasons. The last feature that I see , my personal bias experience I state here , is that the money in the showing and the sports has contributed to a declining interest. When I first did Ring Sports it cost me $100. for the year !! $100 that's right, that's what I intended to write ! $50 to join NARA and $50 to trial my dog . A few years ago my area Sch club ost me several hundred yearly dues , about $100 for Sch USA membership and then about $30 a session to [ two sessions a week ] to have someone work my GS. people in my area charge $75- $100 for 1 private Sch session protection and OB. For the average hard working person it is expensive to title your dog or be a club member in my area. It's about the money now.
I have talked for hours on the phone with Sch USA to give them ideas to help people and GS in the USA . The clubs in USA are no where like the clubs I attend in Germany.
There are not many people willing to teach outside the club unless it is for money . In the USA we need people to teach other people and to mentor.
Susie makes a very very critical comment . In so many words she says that ' you learn by doing'. And in order to learn , to truly learn , you have to do ! I make commetaries here on PDB for people to think about , maybe learn something. However , what people fail to realize is that learning takes many many years. Showing , ok you can read the standard , and what have you learned ... only what the standard has for words. That's it. That falsely gives you the impression that you know the GS. You have to see the GS and many many of them. You have to compare and contrast , to see what is correct and to see what is incorrect and be able to identify those both. Then you have to validate in your mind's eye your conclusion by verifying that conclusion with the dog's movement. The motion , the dynamics cannot contradict the static position and vice a verse. This ability take a lot of time to develop. You don't just go to one show and now you are an expert. This takes also someone to guide you , to correct your mistakes .. hence a mentor need and hence the time , effort and sacrifice and willingness to learn need. BTW at the last Regional Show in my area I spent a lot of time helping and educating people. Everyone else was to themself , not ever a word to help anyone else. I was the only one to help people better themself. That is a shame for everyone has their own agenda and the heck with everyone else. So , if you see someone in need then just offer your advice to them and wish them the best.
Breeding : no you just don't put two dogs together. You have to know what your goal is. How to improve and how to correct via breeding what is not so good. Even more important you have to know what you cannot ever fix. With this goes an understanding of the traits and genetics of the foreparents. You need to know about brothers and sisters, what information to obtain and how then to use it. This also helps with a good mentor . Susie's statement although short is quite profound ! Ditto for working the dogs . In several capacities , .. it took quite a bit of time before I said that I was experienced and many many , many dogs ! People took the time to teach and mentor. You don;t learn bu just looking , there is a lot of explaining and doing in order to learn.

Now .. why import a GS ... I imported a good number of GSs .. but my reason is that what I wanted would not be produced in the USA at that those times. The average German breeding was better than the best breeding in my area in the USA at one time. Living on the East Coast if I had to go to Califronia or Texas or somehwere for a dog , it was just as easy for me to jump on a plane and go to Germany. Which brings up my point.. If you import .. I reccommend that you go see the dog. Also if it is an adult , check the dog before it goes on the plane. I had a friend 20 years ago that went to Czech and the seller switched the dogs . The seller brought a different dog to load on the plane at the airport. But I always write this : unless you know all the parties well and they know you well , always go see your puppy or dog before you buy it . That simple. And if possible take someone experienced even in your own homeland.

Susie is also correct. If younhave not proven yourself , proven your capability , don't expect the acknowledgement if you don't have anything on your belt to a knowledge. this is not a bad comment for this is the way nit is in any endeavor in any part of the world. try to show up at the New England Patriots football practice, when you hardly played college football and they will laugh you off the field. So this is not an offense about what Susie wrote , she was honest ...
Anyone can PM me and in the ways that I can help you I will. Note thoug, that I don't import dogs .

Q Man

by Q Man on 03 January 2018 - 14:01

A number of years ago there just wasn't very good dogs (German Shepherds) in the U.S....Today there's many more good dogs here...The breeders are learning better what to breed and what not to breed...
If you're looking for something...I would certainly look at home first...
Are the SV Registrations/Pedigrees better then the AKC ones? Absolutely...But you can also get a copy of their pedigrees here...In the end it's the "Dog"...Not the piece of paper that counts...
Even if you were to buy something here in the U.S. the best way is still to go and see the dog...but you do have a little more protection...
I do travel to Europe to see dogs and see what I'm buying...But I also have people over there that I have met and trust to make it easier...
So...In the end it's your money...Spend it wisely and Spend it safely...
Unless you know the person choosing a dog for don't know if you're both on the same page...Everyone has a different idea of What you want...


by Centurian on 03 January 2018 - 16:01

Q what you write has truth to it . But "Good ", is a relative term . With some degree it is true what you write but good compared to what and where as well as when . The USA may have better GS , compared to what the has had USA , but what about comparison to other ccountries for what they have ?

Although , I would re word what you wrote and say the USA GSs , they are better, with the meaning better than in the past. But good , does not equate to Excellent or the BEST ! The USA in my eyes is still behind Europe. To give an example : why is it that Police Depts find the need to import GS. Although Ioften say there is goos police material in the USA , I agree with what you wrote in part, but why is it that is THE BEST sought GS are in the US do we import ?

This is difference , whatever you dsecribe a good or quality between Europe ans USA as well as other countires of the world, , is not haphazard . Does anyone think , with the SV as THE Parent Organization , calling the shots for the rules pertaining to the GS and influence on the worlds' organizations .. do you think for one minute that they would ever , ever ** , allow any country ... ANY country, to have better GSs than they would ever have ? Personally , if I thought to myself , that would be so , I would have to look upon myself as an idiot.

Whenever I don't hold something as fact , but hold that belief by empirical observation , I feel relying on common sense and intinct/intuition is the better thinking . So , I challenge you to this : have you ever seen the SV , ever change a rule , that was not ultimately in their better [ best ] interest ? This may be hard for the younger generation to follow , but if you have been around for a while , those that have , I believe will follow this discussion.

Q , yes the GS are better than the past in the USA , but to me that deos not meet my criteria as to what the USA SHOULD have in totality . Some are great GS , but what I see in Europe as a whole ,for breeding , buying and seelng overall , by my standards is still better . Now I could be mistaken , I would like someone on the PDB , to prove otherwise .I would be happy with that and that would be nice for me to know better [ sincerely ].

The difficulty with importing is that quite often , the litter has been picked over, way before the other pups are available for sale. Dido for adult dogs.
Personally , I look for litters that upon looking at the puppies , I see very very tight expressed genetics [ phenotype and genotype]. Meaning that nompup stands out on it's own right and one would have to scratch his/her head to see what is the #1 pick and so on. Even in the USA ,I like to see breeding where this is the case. Hard to breed this and find.. but this is my personal shared thought ...

by Gustav on 03 January 2018 - 16:01

From 1975 to 1990 I imported exclusively from Germany( SV), in the past twenty five years I have not imported a dog from SV, though I have imported many dogs for myself as well as others during that period. I think that I have imported some first class dogs, but who knows?
Anyway, I agree with much of what Susie and Centurian are saying. I think if you are importing blindly, it’s a crapshoot, but if you have a good/strong personal relationship with European breeder, then you can get very nice dogs for you or for others.

Q Man

by Q Man on 03 January 2018 - 18:01

I believe the MOST important thing is to build a relationship with a breeder whether it be in Europe or the U.S. to get what you really want...
I believe that most breeders of working dogs or show dogs wants their dogs/puppies who have the most chance of doing very good things to go into hands that can do the most...

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