Are civil dogs often hardheaded and unsuitable for Law enforcement? - Page 1

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by Glock on 03 December 2017 - 00:12

I recently read on a forum that some civil dogs are unsuitable for LE because some of them bite way beyond the guml line and they can also be hard headed. One counter commentator attributed the hard headedness to improper training. But this does not always seem to be the case.
I know of a breeder in the mid west who breeds KNPV stock Malis of different flavors. One set tend to be atlethic, sporty, and neutral/ social. The other flavor ( and he particularly referred to some off spring line bred on Rudie Pegge ) tend to be extremely civil and as adults both the males and females cn only be met by strangers with at least muzzles. The dogs are hard, highly driven, but also hard headed. I inquired from him if the inability to have these dogs minimally social was due to poor training and he specifically said no as he supplies LE with dogs as well, and is an experienced handler himself.
So my question is that are there some dogs that tend to be so civil that they are unable to become social to those who do not bond to them from a young age?

by hexe on 03 December 2017 - 02:12

"Are civil dogs often hardheaded and unsuitable for Law enforcement?"

<snip>

"So my question is that are there some dogs that tend to be so civil that they are unable to become social to those who do not bond to them from a young age?"

The answer to both of your questions is yes, some are. There isn't  a link between hard-headedness and civilness, however--you can find hardheaded dogs of all stripes.

by Glock on 03 December 2017 - 03:12

Even bonded family membets cannot readily take away a ball.

by NeinNein on 03 December 2017 - 06:12

Even bonded family [sic] membets cannot readily take away a ball.

 

This is simply a case of a dog being a major douche because it wasn't brought up properly. You said "bonded." That's like saying, "Although she bit off 25% of my upper lip last week over something petty, I feel that my wife and I are really close."

 

Although rare, there are some VERY extreme working dogs out there that perhaps only the world's greatest trainers can reasonably control. The corrections that some of these dogs require to change their behavior, if even possible, could easily be interpreted as animal abuse. This is why it is CRUCIAL for these types of dogs to be placed with a highly-qualified trainer that never allows things to get out of control in the first place. I have even seen club training directors that couldn't handle the "monsters" that they created and were forced to call in outside help. Some dogs are simply too tough for the majority of trainers to handle.


by NeinNein on 03 December 2017 - 07:12

There isn't  a link between hard-headedness and civilness

 

How do you know? Have you performed gene testing in a laboratory which proves that there is not a link between "hard-headedness" and "civilness"? Maybe there is. Can you prove without a doubt that somewhere in this universe there are NOT seven purple monkeys dancing on the head of a pin? Until you can prove otherwise, you should say "I don't think there is a link between..."

by hexe on 03 December 2017 - 07:12

OK, NeinNein, I'll put it this way--hardheadedness is not exclusive to dogs that are civil, and civilness is not exclusive to dogs that are hardheaded.

Capisci?
Baerenfangs Erbe

by Baerenfangs Erbe on 03 December 2017 - 07:12

And no, it's not just how you raise them.... absolutely not!

Hundmutter

by Hundmutter on 03 December 2017 - 07:12

Seems to me it can have a good deal to do with SOME of them being raised / trained / handled very poorly by SOME people who own them, however.

Baerenfangs Erbe

by Baerenfangs Erbe on 03 December 2017 - 15:12

But not without the genetics not being there.

Also, way too many people mistake a fear aggressive mess for a "true civil" dog.

Both of my males are civil dogs but you wouldn't know because they are confident, social with a very good temperament. One of them is way more hardheaded than the other but that's his personality. Both are hard dogs, but one of them has a stronger personality and is more "studly" if that makes sense.

 

 

by Glock on 03 December 2017 - 16:12

Baren
Rudie pegge was a legend in the knpv world. This trainer is in the bizz for a long time and to claim that he cannot recognize a fear biter is dubious. He explicitly says the behavior Is genetic and the dogs can take p0ressue as well.

I personally have not seen this extreme but I have seen dogs whose presence and sense of maleness alone that can spark fear in the average person.

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