Sable bitch but pedigree lists parents as black - Page 1

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by Marylee on 12 November 2017 - 21:11

I previously wrote about a 3 year old sable bitch I had bought from Slovakia. Her name is Calamity Kvero.
She has had one litter of puppies back in May of last year before coming to the US. The issue I’m having is everyone is saying two blacks can’t priduce a sable. But I was told one of her parents is not solid black.
Is there anyway to find out which one would be sable because pictures look black. She has been DNA tested. Is there another way to do a DNA on her? I can not believe she has earned all these titles and no one would think it suspicious that she had 2 black parents? I mean come on she stands out like a sore thumb. You can not tell me that while she was in competitions and people saw her (SABLE) and looked at who she was , NO ONE would come forward and question her pedigree until now? It don’t make sense. I can assure you of someone was in the ring with me and I saw sable bitch/ black parents I’d be saying something to someone real quick. It just don’t make sense. To pull a cover up like this ( as I’m hearing) would be one of the biggest cover ups I’ve ever seen when her color can’t be hid.
This is all new to me. I wish I knew the breeder on her parents. Or how to contact them.
Someone had commented on my previous post about did I see the condition of her mom. They were under the impression I bought a Puppy. No, she was 3 years old not a puppy.
Any info would be greatly appreciated.
Marylee

by Western Rider on 12 November 2017 - 21:11

It would be of great help if her pedigree was here in the data base. You did not even give the name of the dam and sire and hope they are in the data base.

You say she has her DNA on file did you match it to the sire and dam.  That will tell the story.  

Sunsilver

by Sunsilver on 12 November 2017 - 21:11

Only way this could happen would be if BOTH parents were actually melanistic sables, and not true blacks.

Even then, no experienced dog person is going to mistake a sable for a truly black dog!

cherjam81

by cherjam81 on 13 November 2017 - 02:11

 


https://us.working-dog.com/dogs-details/2736262/Calamity-Kvero

 


cherjam81

by cherjam81 on 13 November 2017 - 02:11

She's in the database, name is spelled different tho

V Calanity Kvero
Sunsilver

by Sunsilver on 13 November 2017 - 02:11

Well, the two parents certainly LOOK black to my eyes!
Hundmutter

by Hundmutter on 13 November 2017 - 16:11

@Marylee: I do not pretend to be any authority on colour genetics myself, but another member here, Les Pauling in New Zealand, who is currently unable to post himself, tells me the following information which might be of some help to you ?  Incidences like this often stem from early registration with whichever national Kennel Club is involved; a very dark sable puppy might have looked, to a breeder with two black mated dogs expecting all-blacks, as if she too was a black. (Where actually she may have been the result of a mismating with another sire).

Les writes:  "Normally only a mutation from the a^ allele for recessive black to the A^w for wolf sable, or the A^y for yellow sable, can do that".

"Too many people forget that, in addition to the Agouti pattern gene series and the Black/brown gene series, and the dark/dilute gene series, there are OTHERS:  one of these is that the only recessive supposed to be in the GSD gene pool is the BlacK series: K^B being dominant black, k^br being brindle, with the recessive k^y allowing both black and tan.  There have been matings of GSD bitches to studs from another breed carrying K^b.  That MIGHT be the explanation for the 'black - looking' parents of the GSD the OP asks about."

- But this sounds unlikely if both named parents are incontrovertiby Registered GSDS ?  Although Les goes on to say: "Neither parent looks to be 100% GSD to my suspicious old eyes."  PDB shows only ONE photo per parent; neither has an album or gallery of pics, which would give a better chance to assess this possibility.

He adds:  "It takes only ONE K^B parent to turn an Agouti sable, or a tan-point, into the self-black phenotype."

 

Les also provides the following site for a dog called Jake, if people are interested to watch a similar dog growing up:

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/The GSD Source/photos/albums/1844587168/lightbox/2039011862?orderBy=ordinal&sortOrder=asc&photoFilter=ALL#zax/752362944  

Jake's breeder/owner says the dog swaps between bi-colour and black at each moult; when you observe the coat changes this dog has, you might decide that alleles of the Intensity gene series could be the explanation.

 

My only outstanding question with the OP's bitch is that even the darkest of Sable pups do not look anything other than Sable at birth, IME, I don't feel they look solid black; so how old was she when first seen by Marylee, and how old when she was registered (by Marylee herself, or by the puppy's breeder ?).

 

Hope these remarks from both Les and myself shed some light on the topic.

 

Hundmutter

by Hundmutter on 13 November 2017 - 16:11

Added, now I have myself looked at the PDB pages concerned: the genes are THERE; both 'Black' parents each has one Black and one other coloured parent themselves; in the sire's case black & tan (or bi), a sable in the case of the mother. Surely that renders it possible that some colour intensity factor is relevant ?

susie

by susie on 13 November 2017 - 17:11

I'd email kennel Kvero, Roman Novota, and ask about the color of sire and dam...He will know...
Way better than speculating

Baerenfangs Erbe

by Baerenfangs Erbe on 13 November 2017 - 17:11

These are the genetics behind solid black parents.
There is no way that a sable came from two solid black parents, period.
http://www.doggenetics.co.uk/black.htm


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