USCA Sieger Show - Page 1

Does anyone have any comments about the recent USCA Sieger Show? It seems that there was an unusually large amount of pulls in each class.
Judy

We're at a difficult time here in the US. The Sieger Show dynamics are all messed up. There have been quite a few changes and I believe they have taken their toll on the GSD Community.

Basically I think we lost some momentum. Between the JA and the WDA, the show world took a big hit. Many of those that followed the SV model just left.

The GSDCA stepped in and there was a resurgence in interest and participation. It was looking like things were getting back on track. The SV model was going to work.

(The SV model being groups of people getting behind a male, groups of people developing a kennel group, groups of people involved at the club level preparing for the events, etc.)

It was looking like the effort to keep puppies, put puppies in a show home, mentor newcomers, get people involved in all aspects of the breed was going to be practical again. By being practical, I mean there are enough events to warrant making the GSD a hobby or something that made sense to commit a lot of time to.

The momentum was there as the WDA faded and the GSDCA came out with their program. It continued for awhile and a few things happened or didn't happen. The GSDCA struggled to grow their program. It's there but it's still a work in progress as there are not that many clubs putting on events. USCA is stable and has a very strong organization. It's focus is on the working side and there are many, many trials, but very few conformation events.

This all boils down to what do I do with my dog as a hobby? Going to one or two events a year and driving 12 hours to get there is not a hobby. It's a vacation, weekend getaway, or something but it's not something you work and bring people into as a hobby.

As the show side was struggling we at least had two National Sieger Shows. We're pretty much there if we can go to 2 sieger shows and grab a couple shows in between.

I think the loss of one sieger show was a knock out punch for some. Just when we've survived the JA and WDA and it looks like there's interest building in the breed, along comes the WUSV and says one sieger show.

The thought process was to have one big super colossal event with over 500 dogs. We see the reality of the decision. This show went from roughly 325 to roughly 275.

The next sieger show is 18 months away. What will the enviornment look like then? I predict the 2018 show will have about the same entries, maybe less.

We simply no longer embrace the SV way of doing things. The dynamics have changed.

How do we know this? Go back to 2007-9 and 2011 after the WDA elections and look at the entries.

Here's what you'll see.....Progeny groups with good participation. Groups formed from the males in the US. Different kennel names on the dogs in the groups. Indicating the breeders were using dogs, not only their own but others, getting people involved and getting them to the shows. You can use this simple tool as a barometer for a show.

Fast forward to 2017. Look at the groups. Only 6 groups. Three are from dogs in Germany. Two from Mittelwest who is still able to follow the SV model. One has the components but no follow up or involvement in the system.

Take out Mittelwest and what does the show look like? A group here or there, many individuals and newcomers. Many of the old groups missing.

Pretty much everything revolves around the working class. What's happening now is the classes are small. Take a catalog of 30 entries, 7 or 8 don't make it. 7 or 8 don't pass the bitework, and you're left with a dozen show dogs in the ring. Out of the dozen or so, judges don't usually like to go more than 20% of the class VA. As a result, you have some really good dogs that had the entries been greater would have a shot at VA. We can see an example at this show. Twenty seven females in the catalog. Half made it to the ring. Four VA which is generous, 27% of the class in a class where the #8 dog was SG38/V36 and previously VA. Statistically a dog with this set of accomplishments and credentials would be included in the VA group.

It's out of balance. These shows need more participation to bring them back in balance. The problem is we're just not providing the environment for the SV model to work.

If I am understanding things, it seems the logistics of having only 1 National Seiger show for a country the size of USA or Canada is just not practical for getting people/dogs to the event. Maybe it works in Germany and many other geographically small countries, but not over here.

I wish I knew how to ask some sort of follow up to expand more on what Dog1 just stated...that was one hell of a breakdown...I want to know more!

Here's what I observed after being there for the first time.
1- Of all the working class males but maybe 3 or 4, my not yet titled show line male with a BH has much better bite work. Next year, we'll be all in. If this is the best we have to offer, then I finally made the decision to breed my dog. Glad I went even for just for that reason.
2- The most popular breeders are generally not very nice people. Not at all.
3- It was hot as hell in Georgia that weekend & it was tough on the dogs and their people.
4- The junior handlers are the coolest to watch. Like to see kids handling.
5- Don't get in the way of double handlers as you will more than likely end up in the hospital. Some of these people are morons.

Are you saying that the USA club and the GSDCA no longer each have a Sieger Show.

Which one was cut. 

Is there still the Universal Sieger show and which club is in charge of it.

They switch off the Sieger show each year. One year USCA and next GSDCA. It's crazy, but true. And apparently both USCA have Universal Sieger trials within same year.




 

The very fact that neither before nor during nor immediately after the show there were no posts here is a real indication that the sport is in trouble. Everything Dog1 says is correct, but it goes beyond this. The fact is, the sport is in serious trouble if not dying. And this is also true in Germany. Just read the SV Zeitung. 10 years ago 30,000 people attended the Sieger Show in Germany. Now it is half that much. More importantly, the Germans are staying home. You are seeing more Italians, French, Slavs, Scandinavians etc there.

Show dogs must have Schutzhund/IPO titles by the time they are 2 years old to be shown in the working class. Gunter Diegel and his predecessors made getting a SchH title much more difficult than it was 20 years ago. For the average enthusiast,, and I stress the word average, that is to say, a teacher, a dentist, a housewife not a pro, this is hardest sport in which they will ever participate. In Germany the number of members in the SV has shrunk by 50 percent in the past 15 years from 100,000 to roughly 50,000. Very few young people take part. The SV has agressively tried to reverse this by supporting agility, rescue and introducing BH1, 2 and 3 and by having a special youth section in the Zeitung. It is doubtful this will succeed because society has changed. Young people are not taking part in real as opposed to virtual activities the way they used to in the past. They not coming home after school and playing touch football or baseball in parks like they used to. Be that as it may, they still are having more success in Germany than the US. Just take a look around at how many club members in the average club in the US are under the age of 30, let alone 18.

Statistics show that less than 10 percent of all dog owners of any breed take their dog to an obedience class of any type. Probably less than 1 percent of GSD owners ever make it to a club. And of these, probably no more than 20 percent go beyond a BH. This sport depends on the average owner who joins a club. Not the pros who make their livings training dogs or people who work with pros like a huge number of people in the UScA. Just look at the number of clubs that have disappeared. In the past. say 20 years ago, there were lots of schutzhund clubs that catered to the average show dog owner and small breeder, i.e. not Wihlendorf, Mittelwest, Haus Juris and their like. Without the small breeders and average owners, this sport will slowly die. At SV style club shows, the average owner has a club member or friend show his or her dog or even does it his or herself. Compare that to the American GSDCA show game where a bunch of overweight wealthy people hire pro handlers to show their dogs. This is now the route that the German style show sport is going in the US. Of course at the Sieger Shows in the US, it has been like this from the beginning where the Germans bring over VA dogs and win no matter what the dogs condition or whether there is a better American bred dog in the ring unless of course Walter Kotters or someone like him is hired to show their dog. That is politics. But at club shows, the average owner and small breeder has a chance as the playing field is often level for everyone. But clubs which do it all, i.e. not clubs which just cater to working lines dogs, and working lines clubs far outnumber these days, clubs that do it all, are far and few now because it has become near impossible for the average owner to get a SchH IPO title. How many average people have ever titled more than one dog to a SchH title. In more than 25 years in the sport and three clubs, I can count on one hand the number of average sports fans who titled their dogs to SchH3

The WDA had a chance at one point before its last president and exec board destroyed it, to really take the German style sport to a new level. Entry numbers in Kentucky and St Louis were around 500 before the advent of the last president. It is a shame the GSDCA did not tap the people who could have really continued this trend. As for the UScA, if one recalls, although they had the first Sieger Shows, their exec board and membership never really cared about the show people, it was just about money. If one recalls, they chased Ricardo Carbajel, old man Henkel, Mittelwest and all the other show people out by their unfriendly policies. And to this day, they only run a Sieger Show because, unlike their national IPO championships, it makes them money. So, the UScA, pace Jim Alloway (who is regarded as limp wristed or even a traitor by some of the more conservative UScA exec bd members) is not going to rescue the sport, they have no desire to do so.

In sum, the future is grim both in the US and in Germany. The life blood of the sport has always been the average owner and small breeder. At the Sieger Shows in Germany 20 years ago, yes, the large kennels, Wienerau, Arminius, Batu, Bad Boll etc, dominated. But in the stands and in the rings, most of the spectators and participants were average owners and small breeders. No longer, now the names have changed Ulmental, Casa Massarelli, Haut Mansard and the average owners are not there in numbers anymore.

The American show sport has always been a closed click for rich people. God forbid they should have to run around the ring. It would be heart attack city. And these people don't even have to get any kind of working title, not even a CD or CGC, let alone a hip or elbow certificate, to become a champion. And the German style show sport, unfortunately is headed in the same direction, at least in the US, that is to say, the average owner and small breeder are being frozen out.

And as aforementioned, the Germans themselves are partially responsible for this. So long as it is not a level playing field at the US Sieger Shows, so long as a good American bred dog from German lines, cannot beat an average German dog flown over, so long as American breeders would rather keep importing German dogs rather than trying to improve their own stock from what is on the ground, things will continue to go down hill. Here, one must mention Julie Martinez who, though she imports, is an exception to this and has bred many fine dogs from her own stock and competed with it rather than constantly bringing in the latest flavor from Germany.

Whether show or working, the schutzhund sport has always been a very small sport attracting few people because it is hard and time consuming and in todays quick gratification society it is not a good candidate for this. It will not die suddenly but it will all but disappear as we know it unless a few more average sport owners and small breeders can be interested, and this will not happen without addressing the problems outlined above.

What do you consider is the main thing that has made getting an IPO title so much harder for the average person?

And may I add... In my opinion the DVG in the USA is hurting the breed and the sport. DVG allows people to not have any responsibility to bettering any breed and anyone can start a club with no requirement to put on shows etc.
There is simply no reason for it in the USA. In Germany, it has all the sports activities like the AKC no just IPO.
There is nothing you can't do in a USCA club that you can do in DVG and much more that you can do in USCA.
You don't have to have a GSD to work in USCA.