Active helper versus passive helper - Page 1

I have been doing bitework for several dogs lately where the bitework was not so good IMO and owners said the bitework is real good on very active helpers, running, throwing sleeve around and whipping a lot before engaging
these were dogs that had quite a bit of training in them

Ideal IMO is passive helper and active dog

any toughts

I want my helper to teach my dog to act first, or show agression to a passive person. Difficult to acheive with a hectic helper. Active aggression not reactive aggression.

That is why setting a proper foundation, not just by the helper, is so important. You can teach a puppy that nothing will happen with the flirt pole until it barks and MAKES it "alive". Carry on this principle with the dog into the beginnings of bitework when the helper does not react with movement or presentation of the bite object until the dog tells him/her to. I think too many people do not understand this and set up the dog to be reactive instead of active/proactive. I want to see the dog 'bring it' to the helper, not wait for it..

so koots you think its a trainingissue only

Not necessarily - I mean you can only work with what the dog has, drive-wise. Some dogs may have such a high threshold that they do not see any reason (see no 'threat') to be proactive and make the work start. Some dogs may have low prey drive, and not really care about initiating the work. The young dog that works mostly through defence may not be mature enough for the type of work that needs to be done. That is where knowing the dog and how to set a proper foundation is so important. But it is easy to introduce a young dog to the concept in everyday life through regular training that even a dog with high threshold can be taught to be proactive.

The short answer Duke, is "it depends on the dog".

I'm with Koots. Mostly a training thing. You should be able to train a pup, or even older dog to be proactive rather than reactive. Most helpers don't want to though and creating a reactive dog is faster and shows progress to the handler when the dog is "tougher" to get to be active. In regards to sport...the reactive dogs are the ones you see stop barking at a helper in the blind after a certain amount of barking without any movement, or those that can't bark at all without the helper gesturing/body posturing more than what is supposed to happen in the blind on trial day. Even more "defensive" dogs can be taught to be active by moving the helper rather than the rag or even the release of pressure that comes from proper/correct barking.

This is also something that can be helped by a handler training the dog to bark on themselves...so the dog just learns that the bark/search/whatever command means to open their mouth and make noise until they're given a reward or a bite.

I personally think it is much about the dog geneticly, but training can shape things up or down, quite often see people working a dog up with a helper seconds befor they go on exam to title, should they have been training wrong all the time

what im interested to see is if such dog lets say 2 years old can be turned around if its really a training thing, if a dog needs its drives triggered by movement and whips, will it , with changed training, be able to function without triggering its drives first

Here is an example of teaching my pup to bark to initiate.   I am also setting foundation for the bark/hold, as I like to see it, with the dog looking into the helper's face.   

 

 

I like Koots answer...

In daily life dogs don´t know how to react to a helper.

Put a helper in full gear in front of an untrained puppy, and the puppy won´t know what to do.
"Normal" reactions are "meet and greet", avoidence, curiosity, desinterest, suspicion, or whatever - but no "active" dog according to the later goal ( bitework in whatever kind ).
That said, in the early beginning the decoy has to be active ( according to the behavior of the dog ), otherwise the dog won´t learn what we want him to do -

later on I am with Duke - a dog with "quite a bit of training in him" should be eager to work, should be bullying for a fight, should be waiting for the helper, difficult to stop, not difficult to start - everything else would make me think about the temperament of said dog.

Training errors or not - all the "good" dogs I owned or met LOVED to fight - and that´s what I want to see.

Just read Duke´s last post - yes, I think it´s genetics, too.