How many DDR peds are there? - Page 1

I am not a DDR guy so curious about genetic bottleneck and inbreeding.

If people breed strictly to DDR descendants then in say 30 years from now which is 60+ years of dipping into the same smallish closed gene pool, is there any concerns?

This question sparked from a recent DDR dog thread.

Don't know, but when the DDR stopped registering dogs in 1990, they had issued over 173,200 numbers, plus another 40,000 for the ones that the SV originally issued for the SZ series
720000 - 730001
770000 - 780001
810000 - 820001
880000 - 890001
So that is a minimum gene pool of just about 213,200 dogs
The SV has issued approximately 2,331,000 - 40,000 (DDR) or 2,291,000 SZ
Of course the DDR dogs have the SZ dogs in their pedigree, but the SZ dogs (except for those 4 series of numbers) are not counted as DDR dogs.

That gene pool is a heck of a lot bigger than what the showline GSDs have to work with!!

Just sayin'...

You will have a very, very hard time finding a showline without Palme, Uran, Canto or Quando in its pedigree!!

A lot of the showline peds are as heavily line bred as this one:  
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=6186-ursus-von-batu

 

And if you go back 7 generations, it gets even WORSE!

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=6186-ursus-von-batu

 

Holy backmassing, Batman!!  Remember this thread? It wasn't too popular with the showline folks!

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/community.read?post=221753-the-bottleneck-of-the-century--only-one-bloodline-left

Line breeding for the dog in question:

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=751323-held-vom-kranichs-hof

 

Seven-generation: 

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=751323-held-vom-kranichs-hof

So, lots of the same dogs 7 generations back, but I'd say that's too far back to matter. Still light years better than Ursus...

OTOH, as Louise Penery suggests in the 'Bottleneck' thread, it's always a good idea to run a COI to see how much inbreeding there actually is. 

Lol so little common sense being used...just repeat what their masters tell them.

Considering when the DDR fell...it's almost impossible to have purely DDR lines at this point which is what VK is pointing out. No matter how many dogs were registered almost 30 years ago now, few were used for breeding and that means without mixing in "new" blood you wouldn't be able to keep "pure DDR" going.

If you go 7 generations back in most GOOD dogs you'll have a hard time not finding the same dogs or at least closely related ones, it's the idea of breeding "the best" dogs that causes that. At some point, they all have common ancestry, and if they have come from good lines, those ancestors will be the same.

Lol so little common sense being used...just repeat what their masters tell them.

That was obviously a poke at me. I have no masters, B.W. I tend to be very much a lone wolf. 

No. Maybe that's not entirely true. My masters - excuse me - MENTORS - are people like Fred Lanting, Malcolm Willis and others who have been in the breed for more years than you've probably been alive.

..the dogs which were the fountain heads of the breed have long ago slipped off the ends of pedigrees.  Discussing them may seem unnecessary to a present day breeder.  In a sense this is true, but it must be realized that the genes which circulate in the breed today have come down, in most cases largely unchanged, from those fountain heads. 

Malcolm Willis, The German Shepherd Dog: A Genetic History 

You want to argue with the best known geneticist in the history of the breed, go ahead, be my guest!  

Then there's what Gustav (Cliff) says in the bottleneck thread. I'm sure you know who Cliff is? The guy that has been training REAL working dogs for over 40 years, going back to the Vietnam war?

There is a "big difference" between linebreeding on two dogs in the 3,4,5, generations of two dogs that are from different lineage(as workinglines do), and the linebreeding of two dogs in which "both of the dogs are already linebred on the same dogs maybe 4 or 5 times. In the latter example you have a cuminative effect that creates the type of bottleneck that the post is speaking about.  95% of all 16 lines in a showline pedigree will go back to the L litter Winereau(sp). This is the problem with showlines...the "cuminative effect" of all this canvassing on Quanto/Canto has put the breed in a situation that you will "NEVER" improve these dogs healthwise(that is physical and Mental), unto you introduce new blood for many generations. You must sacrificr type and color to do this and the people won't do it,sooooo time moves on, the excuses abound for performance and health issues, and these dogs become less and less capable of doing what they were created to do. I have preached this for years because I saw the Marko/Bodo/Bernd/Mutz's of the world who were show dogs that were top working dogs......we lost our way in the show ring for money and looks and I am glad somebody has detailed it factually so some of the stubbon diehards can at least "grasp it". 

I have a bachelor's degree in biology, and understand how genetics work. It's an indisputable fact that too much linebreeding (which is acutally a form of inbreeding) results in decreased longevity and hardiness. Yes, linebreeding is necessary to set and retain type in purebred animals, but breeders must always be aware that too much of it is going to have deleterious affects. Preston says it far better than I could:

Basic immunity to disease is probably determined by 5 key gene pairs.  If 3 or more are homozygous from close linebreeding or inbreeding, longevity, vitality and robustness of the GSD suffers greatly.  In addition the probability of other pairs of dysfunctional recessives piling up which produce ill health effects and debilitating conditions also goes up significantly.  It is a well known scientific fact that heterogeneity of the immunity determining gene pairs does increase  longevity, vitality and robustness and increased general health and fertility.  If you want continued bad health, reduced longevity and reduced vitality in puppies, just keep doing very close linebreeding.

It is also well known that if one outcrosses, and both the sire and dam carry the same bad genes for reduced longevity, vitality and robustness, reduced health and fertility also results.  Just as with other genes and specific conformation and temperament traits, bad bred to bad increases the frequency of bad in the offspring and tends to fix those traits by piling up undesired or undesireable genes.  If one outcrosses two GSDs, both of which have serious health issues, reduced immunity, vitality and fertility, then one usually gets a fairly high proportion of the same in the progeny. But in general, outcrossing tends to increase health and without careful selection of sire and dam, decreases conformation. But, and this is a big but, a knowledgable experienced breeder can still outcross and get health, vitality and robustness and good conformation..  And a knowledgable, experienced breeder can also get health, vitality, and robustness by doing linebreeding if done very, very judiciously (but it is actually more difficult).

You're an original thinker...no one will ever accuse you otherwise. Congrats. Some get real world experience, others read books and think they know what the breed is about.

Best known geneticist in a field which we still have pretty much zero knowledge except for how color is inherited. Sounds like a person that should definitely be put above those actually working, training, producing, etc. Let me know when you read a book that gives you the gene which controls drive, working ability, nerve, temperament, I'd love to read it and test my dogs for it. Would make life a lot easier.

For those who would appreciate the perspective of a man who actually was involved with DDR dogs in the German military back before the DDR registry became obsolete. I've communicated with him inthe past, he is generous, with first hand knowledge....

https://parchimer-land.homepage.t-online.de/english.htm

Thank you for that link, Joan. Very informative!  It helps answer the question of why some people really, really like these dogs.

You're welcome, Sunny. Here is an excerpt from his 'The Wall' page..

 

https://parchimer-land.homepage.t-online.de/english.htm

These 5 animals were impressively good in protection work. They had to bite on full protection clothing for example. On the other hand there were other dogs only trained in tracking refugees. Especially scout soldiers looked after those.

If a "Code Red" occurred and an escapee was suspected near the border, we as soldiers were instructed to trawl the whole area. Through schooling them with special pipes we coordinated the dogs during our operations with signals.

Basically the majority of dogs were not trained, not even titled. Predominantly the animals were either tame or they had no strong nerves. When they heard a kind of noise they started barking. In addition we also had shepherd dogs which could not be used for breeding because they either had some anatomical failings like problems with their teeth, testicular problems or they were just too large.

In the first place the dogs should discourage all people who tried to pass the "Wall". As I said there were lots of dogs at the border and because of their multitude the aim of the DDR government was achieved. Just fear and fright.

Nevertheless if a shepherd dog was barking at the border, soldiers had to follow commands and they had to control the area around the barking dog. Unfortunately for them the soldiers often had to make these checks without ever finding anyone.