Color Genetics in breeding question - Page 1

Thank you in advance for any help answering this question for me! I have a question about Sable pups from a potential breeding. I have been reading up on color genetics and it says that a Sable will darken the pigment in a breeding, but does that mean the pups will have more black and darker tan/red out of the breeding or will just the tan/red be darker than mom and dad and about the same black? I have a female ,that is a patterned Black and red sable and wish to breed her to a Dark black/tan Sable. My Girl has some patterned black tan/red sables in her lines, but most of the dogs are solid black tan/red saddle backs (no solid colors in her lines,such as black or whites,livers or blues ,etc). The Studs Father is a solid black and mother dark sable, has a few solid black in his line, as well as bi's, but mostly sables. If I were to breed them together, what are my chances of getting black Sables, with deep mahogany red undertones ? Thus I would Love!

Admittedly, color genetics has me stumped sometimes...however, your two sable dogs will almost always produce sables; the variation of sable, I cannot tell you.
I have a female that is solid black but she is a recessive black (tan between her toes, solid black in the summer and her winter "fuzzy butt" coat is a reddish black toward her rear), both of her parents were black/red & black/tan - basically making her masked color black/red. We bred her to a dark sable male; his parents were sable and black/tan.
One male from my female's litter was born exactly the same color as the sire and the rest are varying degrees of black/tan. In other words, we bred a sable to a black & tan and got both colors, no blacks, no bi-colors.
I realize that black/tans can change dramatically from their appearance at birth. However, a sable will also change a bit, but they will stay sable (or gray).
I'm still doing my research on color genetics for my dogs; sometimes the only way to know what you're going to get color-wise is when they're born...and even then, they have some changing to do until you know for sure what variant of sable you have. I hope this has helped you.

This article is very informational and I found it to be interesting. Maybe it will help you! Good luck!

http://www.arlett.de/sables/

I will answer your question regarding sable GSD improving color.
Introducing sable colored GSD in a breeding program of black brown GSDs does not automatically darken color, that is a misconception. It does not darken the base color nor the black hairs of the saddle. What it really does is enrich the pigment of hairs (that is not necessarily darkening) and thus stops color fading. That goes for both the base and saddle colors of a offspring. It also enriches pigment of gums and sometimes nails. Note: (Same is correct when introducing a black brown GSD to a breeding program of sables of several-sable-generations).
The darker the sable partner ( darker hair colors, each hair has a strip of various colors and shades) the more chance of darker pups you would get plus richer pigment.

Sable in GSDs (technically "agouti" from a genetic standpoint) is more of a marking than a colour in terms of how it affects the individual. It affects the pigment banding on the hairs.

Expansion of the dark pigment, shading can result in a range from light (a "sable saddleback") to heavy (a "sable bicolour"). In extreme cases you have a dog that appears almost all black. GSDs are one of the few breeds that has a modifier on the tan-point that increases expansion of tan with age. Thus, black and red dogs are predominantly black as pups, and lighten with age.

It would help to see pictures of the dogs in question. I'm trying to make this simple, so if anyone wants to expand in depth, they're welcome to. But, from a practical, visual standpoint, without going into intensive genetics:

- if neither parent is a sable, you will not get sable pups.

- if you breed sable to sable, you will get sable pups, though there is a chance, depending on what the parents carry recessively that you might get solid blacks, bicolours, etc.

- if one parent is sable, and the other is a saddleback, you will most likely get pups that have "sable saddles," as solid colour in the GSD is recessive to the saddle pattern.

- if one parent is sable, and the other is solid black, you will (most likely) get all sables.

- intensity of red/black varies tremendously from individual to individual. Simply adding "sable" will not create dark pigment. There plenty of pale sables out there, even from dark parents. Same with the amount of red. You might get vibrant mahogany sables, or light grey sables. Naturally, if you breed dark, intensely coloured animals together you increase the odds of producing the same, but sometimes it doesn't work out that way. Often, only breeding will ultimately show you what the planned pair might produce... and then, of course, the pups' colours will change multiple times until they get their final adult coat.

Something worth adding to both the posts by Ibrahim and
jcCarroll - which between them sum up the "what you ought
to get" position very nicely - is that you need to remember
that genetics works on a very broad basis. So just because
you "ought" to get a certain ratio of sable puppies in, e.g., any
one litter that has one sable parent and one black&gold parent,
and that sable parent "should" promote better pigment in all their
offspring, does not mean that IN THAT ONE LITTER that is what
you will actually get.

Depending on how the genes fall out of the 'mixing bowl'
that is the breeding process, you might still get one or more
pups that are a paler sable than the parent is; or pups with
fainter, rather than stronger, pigmented nose & toenails.
It is worked out on overall averages, not on hard & fast rules
'per litter'.

You may already realise this, EshelmanSchwitz, but I thought
it was worth adding anyway, for any readers not experienced in breeding.

I sent you a PM.