juvenile cataracts - Page 1

I need some input from reputable breeders on what you would do for a client in my situation:
I have a 8 month male gsd with one retained testicle and possible juvenile cataracts. It will be confirmed by a specialist tomorrow. In the event he does have it and requires surgery at around $1500 to $3000 per eye which is way more than the price of the pup. Is it fair to ask for a full refund to spend on surgery? It seems like most breeders will replaced the pup for a equal value pup when returning the original pup which puts the client in a bind because they built a bond with the dog plus vet bills already spent. What is the point of that if the pup is useless and likely to be put down because one the breeder will not spend the money to fix the issue and if not should not be resold therefore they will cut they loss and put the pup down. With that said, isnt it right for the breeder to return the money and allow the owner to use it toward the pup treatment and have some care for the pup instead of putting it down. Not only that the parents were not health tested for eyes which is my fault for not asking but if they were and tested OK what is the likelihood of one pup out of so many litter of same parents get a diagnosis of juvenile cataracts .....and not to mention one retained testicle. I am the only person of all clients with this problem.

As a breeder what would you do to fix the problem so that both sides are satisfied? Also, I brought another client to this breeder before getting my pup's diagnosis.

RDH, I am no breeder, but I do have an opinion...

In case you subscribed a contract including a warranty, the breeder has to follow the contract, not more, not less.
Morally ( again, I am no breeder ) I´d refund the money you paid for the pup in case the diagnosis "cataracts" is made, and you are willing to spend the money for surgery. About the "health testing" - cataracts are seldom in German Shepherds, most of the dogs are not tested for it.

What about the missing testicle? Did you know about it and did you get the pup for less than the regular price?

Off topic right now, but are you training in French Ring as you wanted to do years ago?

Like Susie said...cataracts are not something on our radar. I know some American lines that have had eye issues and some now test, but I know of no one in Europe who tests eyes in GSDs. I have actually never known firsthand of a young GSD with cataracts.

I have some experience with cataracts in dogs (Cockers) and that estimate sounds high. What all does that include?

Do you know that these cataracts are genetic? 

From Fred Lanting: 

"Juvenile" cataracts (a misnomer) might not start until as late as six years of age. Juvenile cataracts are also referred to as "developmental" cataracts. In the German Shepherd Dog, most cataracts are the congenital, progressive, and autosomal-recessive type. That latter term means it is not linked with the gene determining gender, so it will affect and be carried by either sex; it also means that both parents must be carriers (or afflicted, of course, though that's not likely). In Chessies and Goldens, a dominant gene causes cataracts, so it's a bit easier to “cull the culprits.” Juvenile cataracts may be the same as congenital, depending on how closely the eye is examined, so if the term is used in connection with a GSD, you might best consider it to be the inherited, congenital form, especially if it gets worse with time.

In the GSD, at least, it is hard to differentiate acquired from congenital cataracts. The possible environmental causes are many: nutritional/metabolic, exposure to toxins, inflammation associated with disease organisms, and trauma, mostly. Diabetes, DMSO ("horse" liniment), and DNP (a formerly popular injectable wormer) are others. They may be progressive, too, but are less likely to be so than is the certain worsening within a year of the inherited/congenital type. Orphan pups on a milk replacer sometimes develop cataracts, probably due to an arginine amino acid deficiency; just add a little powdered gelatin to the formula to reduce risk. Often, acquired cataracts are reversible by removing the causative agent.

Other opacities may appear on the cornea over the pupil or slightly off-center, and the novice might think the dog has cataracts. For example, an allergic reaction or some other cause may show up as a small spot, the opacity varying from slightly translucent to more white. The size is usually less than 5mm across, round, oval, or horseshoe-shaped. Most eye specialists refer to this type of opacity as "corneal dystrophy"; the spots do not interfere with vision. In my experience the spots have faded away in a few years after reaching maximum size. Corneal dystrophy appears to be genetic, but is not serious. Probably less than one percent of the breed is affected. I once had a bitch that developed very small oval opacities, one on each cornea, after she was about four or five years old. They finally and gradually disappeared (shrunk to nothingness) by the time she was about ten years or more. At least one of her sons had the same condition, appearing in maturity and going away without treatment by old age. This bitch also developed atopic (allergic-type) problems marked by itching feet and sometimes parts of the skin, but most noticeably by an assumed feeling of excess phlegm in the throat. To get rid of this mucus, she would eat "scratchy" nonfoods such as dried pine needles, bark, sand, fabric (on hidden parts of furniture) and even fiberglass curtains. I had to administer about 1-2ml of prednisone every 4 weeks to control this "itch" and to keep her from extreme discomfort and destructive/unwanted behavior; a month was too long, and I mistrust steroids enough that any more frequently was undesirable. The steroids almost undoubtedly contributed to her sudden death, probably of mesenteric capillary hemorrhage, about six weeks following an operation for gastric torsion when she was 12 years old. One of her many sons developed the same transient and minor corneal defects.

Copyright, Fred Lanting, 1998. Reprints, forwarding, website or magazine use must have the author's permission in writing (e-mail approval OK). Send complete description of proposed use and medium to:

Wow you remember Susie. It's been years since I've been on here. Unfortunately, no not yet. I'm in dental school now. My dobie passed in Oct so I was looking for a replacement pup to get me through the high stress and anxiety in school. He refund me a couple hundred for the retained testicle to put towards neutering since he didn't check before selling me the dog. I didn't know as this is my first male dog. And I got him for a extremely fair price but it doesn't compare if the dog can go blind. I wanted to look into pp with him but if his eyes are bad then its probably pointless. Schutzhund clubs here are full as well and very expensive....as being a student and single parent.

Jenni yeah the contract only covers hips. This pups grandfather is Remo. Seems like I got the bad end of the stick and in a dilemma on what to do or proceed to contact the breeder as I complained about the testicles and now complaining of another issue.....if my pup has a issue then I feel that his stock of dogs should be tested. Interesting reference, he has the glare when u take pic of a animal with a flash on but it can be seen in dim light. The glare in his eyes are always there and more noticeable in dim light. He doesn't scratch or anything. I hope it's nothing or a simple solution. The quotes are from searching the internet on pricing for surgery. I was told its not cheap as they have to replace the lens. Also, as I'm reading your post my dog was a orphan too because mom passed away on the table delivering a large litter as well as 2 pups didn't make it.

Here's to hoping it's something like Fred Lanting has mentioned. It's always a risk with orphans as to what you can expect. I'm sorry you're dealing with this.

I'm sending you a PM.

We will see tomorrow if I get out of school on time to get to my appt.

There's a marked difference between complaining to the breeder and notifying the breeder of something he or she should be made aware of in case it is something that is heritable, RDH. If you were the breeder of this pup, would you want one of your puppy buyers to let you know when something like this popped up, or would you prefer to remain in the dark and thus possibly end up setting the trait in your breeding program?

Me, I'd want to know, whether it was something I should have been on the look out for or not. As Susie and Jenni explained, they aren't completely foreign to the breed, but they aren't something breeders routinely screen their breeding animals for unless they have reason to think the condition might be in the lines. I'm not a breeder, either, but I agree with Susie--if I were, I'd refund the remainder of your original purchase price now, and if you wanted to rehome him I'd help out with that or take him back if you needed me to do so. I'd probably try to help out with the surgery costs if it were decided that was the best course of action. But contractually, your breeder isn't obligated to do any of those things, and it doesn't make them a bad breeder. Just unlucky, along with you and your pup, in this particular situation.

Sadly, it does seem like your guy got the bad hand in the genetic deal for the litter. Sorry to hear that.

Hexe, do you have any experience with what Lanting is speaking of in orphans?

You can always contact the breeder and ask for what you would like--or just to inform them of the situation.

If someone contacts me with an issue not covered by the contract, I always listen to find out what they are asking. Often, the buyer doesn't ask for anything specific. That leaves me, as the breeder, guessing what the owner wants in the situation. Are they asking for a replacement puppy? Do they want to return their current dog? Are they asking for a full or partial refund? Are they asking for a discount on a future puppy? Do they just want me to know about the situation and be a sympathetic ear? I usually offer something even if it's not covered in the contract, but it would be easier if I had an idea of what the buyer is expecting or hoping for.

It never hurts to politely express what you want, "This isn't specifically listed in the contract, but would you refund me some of the purchase price to help pay for the surgery?"

Or, "I love this dog and will give him whatever he needs, but I'd love a working pup from a future litter of yours. Would you be willing to give me a break on the price of a future puppy?"

Or, "I can't live with this dog because of this problem, will you take him back, refund all the money I paid, and figure out what he needs?"

Or, "I'm not asking for anything, but I thought you would like to know--perhaps have the dam's eyes checked."

As a breeder, I can then say yes, no, or offer a compromise. And if I end up agreeing to refund the money to go toward the surgery, I am more likely to make a payment directly to the vet doing the surgery than cash to the owner. And getting a full refund and keeping the dog is not normally going to be a option--unless it's something that will end up monetarily draining (like expensive surgery) and I am sympathetic and want to help. (That is, I'm not going to refund money to pay for a broken leg because the owner let the dog run loose.)

I have a Jack Russell Terrier who developed a cataract in his left eye at age 2 and a cataract in his right eye at age 6. Onset at age 2 is very unusual, even for breeds where the problem is relatively common. I considered doing the surgery at age 2, but waited to see if the other eye would have a problem while he was young. By the time the 2nd cataract developed, he could see again (although poorly) in the left eye because the lens had shrunken and fallen so he could see without being able to focus--which is usually the situation after you do the eye surgery. (At least that was the case in 2006.)

Both his parents were CERF tested, but back in 2004, when he was born, there were no DNA tests for this problem. I didn't get any sort of refund, although I did get like $200 off a 2nd puppy I bought 2 years later (totally different bloodlines).

Christine

Thanks all for comments and recommendations. Right now I'm stuck because he hasn't emailed me back or text.....I think he still out of the US handling family stuff when I messaged him. I will try again this week.

I don't want to go with out treatment because it is unethical.... If it we're a human would one do that? I need to figure out something because it is ridiculous for dogs to be bred with genetics issues and ppl spending hard earning money $1500 plus on a dog that will cost more than the purchase price within 4 months of having him...smh. He is only a pup having this issue vs being a senior.

I'm just irritated of this situation (2) and money spent trying to keep the dobie alive as much as I could until she let me know she had no more fight in her.

Crossing my fingers today that it's nothing serious.

Out of curiosity Christine if the pup has cataracts and the buyer returns the pup, what would you do with it?