Character - Page 1

I'm fairly new to the GSD world and Im still learning and curious about a lot of stuff. FYI I am not a breeder n I don't plan on breeding anytime soon but during a recent discussion with a fellow dog enthusiasts(some of them breeders), certain statements were made of which I had reservations so I ask the knowledgeable people here. Is it possible and has anyone here ever had a breeding or heard of a breeding; 1. where two strong dogs with strong pedigrees produced a litter of mostly shy and weak puppies or 2. where both dogs were shy or one was shy but produced a litter of mostly strong puppies? I'm aware of breeding shy dogs being frowned upon but surely it has been done or am I delusional? Sorry if the question is too shallow, not exactly experienced in the breed.

I think it has to do with nature vs nurture. The right person can always build confidence in a shy dog and completely shatter/ruin a confident dog. However, temperament is also something that is naturally handed down. If a shy dog with confident siblings that all come from a line of confident dogs breeds with another shy dog with confident dogs in the lines, their offspring would likely be confident. The opposite could be said about two confident dogs bred together that come from a line of shy dogs.

Either way, if the temperament isn't right, the dog shouldn't be bred to, but breeding is more than just looking at the dog presented. You've got to know what's behind the dog, too, and decide what risks you're willing to take in order to produce better offspring.

Also, I'm not a breeder. However, I'd like to become a reputable breeder one day, so I've done my homework and would know what established breeders think of my reply. :)

Read the standard of the GSD. The AKC version has the most defined character description of any breed in their book. One part says ''difficult to define but unmistakable when present''. You ask here for the most knowledgeable opinions, but do not think for a moment that is the only people who will reply to this question. Get involved with people in your area who strive for the same things the standard holds as important. Weigh all input with your own observation, and enjoy !!

Stupid questions lead to stupid answers .. If you have puppies who have seen there mother shot and killed in front of them at 8 weeks with a loud gun for instance .. all of the puppies will be warped by the experience in one way or another. Afraid of gunfire or aggressive toward people with or without guns, afraid of loud noises, or just afraid or aggressive when stressed are all possible outcomes of traumatic events in a puppy's life and upbringing. Puppies separated from their litter mates at 8 weeks and raised by stupid humans often have problems getting along with other dogs. Some things only a dog can teach a dog and puppies need their dog family just as humans do. The fact that most humans rip the litter apart at 8 weeks because it is convenient and profitable to do so does not make that practice best for the puppy. That's why raising puppies is a lot more than shoving food in their mouths and behavior is a lot more than simplistic genetics.  There is nothing breed or species specific about both good and bad experiences affecting a dog or a human baby's behavior for their entire life.

dear naytejr; There are no stupid questions when you begin anything. Read, train, socialize with like minded people who have the betterment of the breed as a motivation. I have seen what you state in your question, in both directions. Environment only explains part of behavior and genes only explains part of behavior. There is no explanation for BBBB

Environment is king in determining the dog's response to stress .. the environment that the sire and dam is exposed to has effects both psychological and physical for the puppies derived from a mating .. then there is the post natal effects during the first 4 months with the parents and other dogs in a family of related dogs (called a pack sometimes). Blaming everything that happens in a dog's physical and mental development on genetics is simplistic BS. A dog's personality, intelligence, and physical attributes are always a product of environment interacting with genetics.

Excerpt from a study on prenatal and epigenetic influences caused by stress in parents ( and even grandparents ) of mice.

Through the uterine environment, mothers can pass their environmental exposures on to the fetuses they are nurturing. Thus, studies looking at mechanisms of epigenetic inheritance tend to focus on fathers—pretty much all they give to the fetus is genetic material. And male mice don't need to help in rearing the young, so this genetic material can be their only contribution to the next generation. In earlier work, these scientists exposed male mice to six weeks of alternating stressors like 36 hours of constant light, a 15-minute exposure to fox odor, exposure to a novel object (marbles) overnight, 15 minutes of restraint in a 50 mL conical tube, multiple cage changes, white noise all night long, or saturated bedding. Poor little guys. Then the scientists allowed the mice to breed. Adult offspring of these chronically stressed dads had reduced hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal stress axis reactivity; when they themselves were restrained for 15 minutes, they did not make as much corticosterone as mice sired by relaxed dads. This is relevant, and problematic, because blunted stress responses in humans are associated with neuropsychiatric disorders like depression, schizophrenia, and autism.

The effects of stress are passed on to the next generation in both male and female mice.  This is why how the breeder handles and nourishes the parental generation as well as how the puppies are handled and nourished influences greatly how the puppies develop both mentally and physically.

There is environmental influence for sure, but honestly, everybody who raised some litters ( even one is enough ) knows that there are different characters in one single litter. The mother doesn´t need to be shot to produce a shy puppy...
In case it´s that much environment we wouldn´t need to choose "our" pup out of a litter, they would be the same at the age of 8 weeks - and they definitively are not ( normal litter, normal dam, normal raising ). Within one litter you mostly are able to find both outgoing, strong pups and weaker ones ( I don´t want to call them "shy" at this point = a variation of a lot of different temperaments ). At this early age ( and given the dam wasn´t shot...) it´s genetics, environment does play a minor role. As soon as the pup is separated from the siblings ( for me at the age of eight weeks ) things become different. From now on it´s on the new owner to develop positive traits and to suppress negative traits = environment = no more nature, but nurture.

To the OP: There are no absolutes in breeding, there are only tendencies. The chance to get a strong dog out of strong parents is higher than to get a strong dog out of weak parents, but it happens. That´s the main reason why people should watch the pups they are interested in in real, and not only on paper ( that´s the reason why a dog should show proof of its working abilities later on - the likelihood to get good dogs out of good dogs is high, but not given ).

Welocme to the GSD world and interesting question. I'm sure you will get many different responses to your inquiry. You always should try to breed dogs that compliment each other. You look at the best traits in both dogs and think everything looks good. But you also have to consider the bad or undesireble traits because they may come out in the breeding as well. When dealing with genetics there are no guarantees of success. Also as has been mentioned, external forces can mess up a pup.

I do not believe that you should put two, soft dogs together, with the intention of producing street worthy, dual purpose police dogs. This is why the schutzhund was created. Breeding suiitability test. If you want to understand the breed look into reading as much as you can about the founder of the breed Max von Stephanitz.

http://www.nsgsdc.com/breedhistory.shtml

http://maxvstephanitz.homestead.com/mvs_breeding.html

Thanks everyone for your responses, pretty enlightening. I had heard about the role of nurture in moulding the overall character but I didn't think it was as significant as that of nature. Bubba your 'stupid' answers were not entirely useless. Thanks for the heads up btw.

One last thing to consider is that good breeders have good dogs because they know how to feed, mold the development, educate and socialize their dogs with the help of both people and other dogs. People get a puppy at 8 weeks from a great mother and father raised and developed in the hands of experienced breeders and then fail to reproduce the breeder's results. They feel cheated or they feel they got an inferior puppy but the truth is that usually most people have neither the experience or skills to replicate the environment that produced the great parents. I spend a minimum of $80 per dog per month on food alone. Many if not most people will not do that. Over the lifetime of a dog the incremental benefit to the dogs and their offspring of feeding a really good diet ( it could be better ) are tremendous. It is the incremental benefits that experienced breeders are able to add to their dogs that often make the difference in a puppy growing up to be average or exceptional. Even before conception the future genetic window of a puppy or dog is being determined by environment (epigenetic or nutritional) and genetics. Where the dog lands in that normally very large window is determined by environment. Obviously everyone wants to have a puppy with the capability to become an exceptional dog and most do have that capability however most puppies with exceptional genetics never realize their potential because of environmental restrictions.