Help with pedigree - Page 1

Hi, I'm looking for someone who may be familiar with some dogs in my puppies pedigree. I'd just like to hear about the lines and what people may know of them. http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=2391298-fushions-mein-leitstern .Thank you

Of course it didn't take the link...sorry.

Hi Fusion, Welcome to the board. How old is your girl?  Is she your first GSD ( German Shepherd Dog)?  Is she primarily a companion or are you hoping to do some kind of dog sport (obedience, agility, tracking, schutzhund, herding) with her? My favorite is the herding but not all have the talent. My last sport dog Remy http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=485683-remy was a great great Schutzhund dog and Service dog but had not a herding bone in her body ( tho biddable enough could be used on a down stay blocking a runway etc)

There are a couple of problems with responding to your request for info. First of all large chunks of the pedigree are missing and 2ndly for almost all the dogs in the first three generations there is a good chance at least some of the information (such as OFA # or work title ) MAY be missing. Since it doesn't show most people will not check on their own and the presumption is the dog lacks any such clearances or qualifications. You may want to order an extended pedigree from AKC or one of the pedigree services ( ask the board I know I've seen a recommendation for that). The private ones can give you additional info the AKC one doesn't such as color, country of origin and sometimes foreign titles and pedigrees. Know what you are buying up front - it's not cheap the further back you go. Not all services have access to the foreign stud books ask before you orders since much in the 5th gen and beyond are European dogs. You can possible develop some of this on your own. Start with the person who sold or gave you the dog - especially if that is her breeder. If not try to track down her breeder and ask ask ask a lot of questions. Google is wonderful just remember to try pieces of the name because misspellings are often rampart as I will show you in a minute. Any google search should include gsd at the end of the query so it is looking for shepherds named xyz. AKC has a report page in their store where you can look up names and get akc #'s for free and also a free report of titles in progress which will show any titles completed. They have an old difficult database. Start with the least amount of info to search such as dingo isht or von der blanka. Try several searches before you give up. Another place to look is the OFA records. I went out to check Dingo's record and from that pulled up this page http://www.offa.org/display.html?appnum=1528940#animal with what are likely a number of relatives. This is also a good example of the problem of misspellings -see the variations on  Stalhaus ( stalhuas  staalshaus) and Stalhammer (staalhammer stolhammer) people double up on ll's or remove them for example or an a becomes an o because it was handwritten and illegible. You may want to try some of these spelling variations on this and other pedigree databases - you might come up with some useful info.

Edit reason - LOL so many mispellings you could shake a fist at them. Hope I got them all except the examples. I'm not sure if the brain thinks faster than the fingers or vice versa

Now I also needs to mention that this is a tough board. If you ask for info you will get some but also with a lot of opinion and attitude - so batten down the hatches, I can see a storm coming. People care about the breed and preserving its working traits and structure. Many if not most subscribe primarily to the German Standard. For example one problematic area of the pedigree is the bitch lines which seems likely to have been bred from white GSDs. White has been a disqualifying fault since 1938 in Germany and the 1950's in the U.S. White GSDs are still AKC registerable and can be shown in working venures but can not be shown in breed or conformation. You will see white breeders breeding to normal colored akc gsds but folks adhering to the German standard would be highly unlikely to breed to a white. BTW check the white gsd part of this db. The pedigrees are separate so you may find some info over there.

The next problem area is from the information at hand in the first three generations (which is primarily what most people look at and consider important) there is only one dog with a single health clearance (Dingo) and one with any indication of training - Aldo. Most would want to see much more consistency on both those items since they tell you a lot about the potentiality of what your dog might have some aptitude for and because it shows responsible breeding trying to limit health problems and preserve the working character of the breed. If you checked out Remy's pedigree above you will see what I mean. Now she does have a few holes - some I have not been able to find or fill because of the language barrier (she came from Holland at the age of 10 weeks), some because the Dutch hip clearances are not published in any open manner like OFA that I have found and most likely some means something was not done BUT enough was known about her and her ancestors that she was chosen for some very specific reasons by very knowlegeable GSD people and it was worth taking a chance on those holes.

BTW She had a very unusual pedigree. She was what we jokingly refer to as a half breed ( which is frowned on by many) because her sire was hi-line (german show dog) and her dam all knpv working lines ( Dutch police dogs). But note that her sire was unusual for a show dog - he was also knpv plus national FH tracking champion in three countries - Holland, Belgium and France. She inherited the show dog body - big lanky and lighter colored but was all heart and fire a working dog inside. Because she was my service dog in everyday life when we tracked for Schutzhud she free tracked ( very difficult) AND retrieved the article back to me and returned to tracking after each article all on her own. So in her case her pedigree indicated the potential to be a good if not great tracking dog  and to be very strong in the "work" ( protection) and so it was.

Now I personally never limit myself to the first three generations. I have been studying GSD pedgrees for over 50 years and I love looking at what I call the "back forty". I love studying the "brews" of old time breeders - what they based their lines on and the dogs they used for spice only . I also believe you HAVE to know what's back there becasue if you don't one of these days chances are it's going to jump out and bite you in the ass. For example if you girl is not white and you did not understand that her dam comes from whites ( which is  recessive trait) you might be surprised if she pooped (popped popped I really truly meant popped) out a white pup. Any recessive can operate the same - color, missing or additional teeth, epi, bad hips etc etc. Finally while the first three generations set the details the back forty sets the tone or setting sort of like a landscape painting. You need both to get a complete picture.

So once we get back to the 5th to 7th generation it gets a lot more interesting to board members because these dogs are familiar to them.  In your case it is mostly Dutch (NSHB) Belgian (LOSH) and German (SV) working lines and quite respectable ones tho distant. One thing I personally do is I always look at the linebreeding not only of the indiv but also of each of their parents and sometimes grandparents because how tightly or loosely a dog is bred is often a predictor to how well or not they will pass on their individual traits. Here I was surprised to see that Dingo is actually fairly closely linebred (3-4 on Leo 55-4 on Crok) and his sire and dam are further linebred on dogs such as Mink and Grief - very strong powerful working dogs.

So what does that tell me. The broad strokes were laid on the canvas but whether the details got preserved as time went on or flakes fell away distorting the picture I can not say without seeing your girl and probably some of her near relatives. I will say the FOR ME ( and me only) I am not a fan of close linebreeding on Mink thru Crok. What I have seen with those lines is a sharpness  with too much aggression and not enough stability and control and what we call a thining of the nerves - the dogs are not as stable, do not recover as well to stress.

But again we are talking broad strokes here. The best way to know what your girl's potentiality and capability is - is to start to work and train her. It will answer your questions, it will make her a better  more manageable dog regardless of what the genes may say and it will give the two of you a better relationship. So I hope you let us know something about the team - you and her and what your aspirations might be. I hope you keep us posted. I wish you good luck BUT remember - have fun, be proud of your girl whatever her capabilities are and if you can, find a venue that she likes and wants to do. The best is when you both enjoy an activity but the worst is when you enjoy for example agility and your dog hates it. At that point find what floats HER boat. In the end you both will enjoy it more and with a lot less frustration. Sorry about my verbosity - just didn't lend itself to a simple answer.

 

Tig, that is a very comprehensive, great answer ;  the sort I wished

I could give the OP, and if these had been British dogs I would probably

have attempted !   Hope Fusion finds it useful.  Good on yer !

Hi Tig, thanks so much for all your input, it's greatly appreciated. Stella,(my gsd) is a 7 month old 60lb blk/tan. She is a good sized girl with nice bone and a semi masculine head for a bitch( just my preferance). I purchased Stella at 9 weeks old based on her confidence when introduced to unfamiliar surfaces, objects, noises, her overall watchfullness, and her great eye contact. All very important to me! I was raised with gsds and belgian tevuren as family companions and continue with the gsd for my own family. I am probably going to catch some heat for saying this lol...but I have found it hard( at least where I live) to find a good shepherd with the qualities I stated above. I kept running into dogs that seemed to nervous around unexpected but everyday occurences, or a dog that over reacted to these same occurences. I like a dog that reacts to me, and how I feel about the situation. I have found this in Stella

I am interested in the white gsd lines, because I am not familiar with them. I'm more than likely going to catch some heat for this too, but I believe any color dog is capable of having for example, good temperament, intelligence and conformation.  I didn't realize this site had a white gsd db...thanks for telling me that. I will keep researching and hope to become familiar with these lines. Afterall, they are part of my girl. I have searched OFA and CHIC and found some things I was pleased with, so that was good.

Also, I am going to check on herding with her. I have a feeling we would both really enjoy that. Thanks so much and I hope to talk with you in the future.

This is Stella. I was trying to post one of her standing but it keeps saying the file is to large. GRRRR I will try again.

I was directed to this thread by another poster, and I have to say it is so interesting to read the evaluations of pedigrees. I hopefully will be able to completely understand it all.

But for now I just want to say thank you to all of you who assist all of us novices :)

Not being rude. Very good dogs on sires top side in the back 4/7 generations. The front of the pedigree seems like people were just breeding 2 gsd together. As far as the mothers side as fr back as I can see is petlines and even some white lines, Enjoy your pup for what he is a companion. As you learn more about the breed in the future you will become more aware of decent pedigrees thus enhancing your chances of getting a decent dog.(< statement is in no relation to the quality of your current pup).. The first dog I ever posted on here was of similar pedigree and he ended up being one of the best dogs Ive ever seen. Did he breed no but he was a hell of a dog... Heres his pedigree for example http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=721497-harrisons-bruno-v-zweiten-zu-keinen

compared to my current males pedigree...http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=2332184-amigo-hardy-z-salem