Help with pedigree - Page 1

Looking at buying this pup.

Does his pedigree look ok??

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=2108004-nando-vom-grunwald-haus

I am not a showline person, but I would definitely trust Raf at Grunwald Haus. Most definitely. 

Pretty tight breeding there--which means the resulting pups could be absolutely awesome, or they could display every recessive fault or malady that's hidden in the genetic cards they're carrying. Where it can get risky is in not knowing what bad or undesirable stuff lurks in the genes of the grandparents and great-grandparents and so on; doubling up on the good traits means you're also doubling up on the bad ones, too. This kind of mating is often done in order to set a phenotype, or to emphasize a particular trait or traits such as temperament, work ethic, etc--or to try and flush out any hidden genetics that may bring with them a higher risk of bloat, or cardiac issues, or pancreatic insufficiency, or weak temperament...

I would expect this breeder to be sufficiently familiar with their breeding stock and bloodlines they are using to have some idea of what they'll get out of this pairing, but that's something I would want to discuss at length with them before committing to anything, were I considering a pup from this litter. I'd want to know what specifically they were looking to achieve in doing such a close breeding--what were the traits they were seeking to emphasize, and what less-desirable traits had been seen in full or half siblings of each parent?  In particular, I'd want to know if either parent, their littermates, and their parents had any immune-related issues--food sensitivities, allergies to pollens or grasses or fleas, other skin problems, low thyroid function, chronic ear inflammation and/or infections--

There are some dogs in the pedigree which have raised questions as to whether their offspring are at greater risk of death subsequent to bloating and torsion at relatively young ages. While it has yet to be shown definitively that all gastric torsion has a hereditable factor, the data does give strength to the theory that an increased tendency for the problem can be passed on from generation to generation when it's observed in young and middle-aged dogs who are otherwise healthy and in top condition.  The appearance of those dogs on their own would not concern me overmuch, but with as tight as the pedigree on this litter is, I would go into it with eyes wide open, and make sure I was well-versed in the earliest of signals that the dog even MIGHT be starting to bloat...and what should be done to reduce the risk of it happening.

Of course, any of the issues I've mentioned checking into can and do appear in dogs with absolutely no line- or in-breeding at all, but as soon as one starts tightening the supply of unique genes available in the pool for a particular litter, the risks of magnifying one or more of those issues rises exponentially.

technically a 2-2 breeding (inbreeding)  on  Rala/Riva von der Königsgarde  - far too close for me!

Thanks for the info so far. 

K9w,

They are sisters so doesn't that make it 3-3?

Hello,

I need some advice!

We have bought a sharpei dog from Belgium about a year ago, but we still have not received the correct pedigree with the right chip number. It is because our dog had a different chip number from what we have originally received, they told us that two puppies have been exchanged by mistake. But we do not know what to do, as we have no documents for our dog and the kennel refuses to communicate. What can we do?

OP, What Winnie is referring to is known as litter linebreeding. While the classical ways of counting generations for linebreeding will show this as a 3 -3 many of us view it as a 2-2 because in fact while the sisters do not have identical genes they come from the same pot so to speak. You are limiting the amount of dna that is available to be used as opposed to the same sire with a different bitch or the same dam with a different sire  both of which could give you a 3-3 linebreeding on those individuals but with two extra genetic lines thrown in.

So litter line breeding is in effect a mini genetic bottleneck which is why some of us like to note it. Unfortunately PDB does not show it when calculating linebreeding. It is not that uncommon tho usually you'll see sister/brother combinations if it was a strong litter that produced a number of good breeding individuals.

Here it is important because it is in effect doubling up on some of the health risk factors Hexe mentioned - certainly worth discussing with the breeder - though don't be surprised if he/ she views it as if you are questioning their expertise.