Need Expert Advice on Growling.... - Page 1

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I have a coming 3 year old intact male.  He is well socialized, and has always been overtly friendly.  However, recently, he has started growling.  Let me explain this a little....

He had all the basic obedience training at home.  Six months ago, I started formal obedience training with him.  I can't say if the problem started there... or with him maturing and asserting his dominance.  He does not growl at me (his handler).  He has never raised a lip or put his ears back.  He growls at one of the trainers (a tall dominant man who has never touched him or even walked him), and not the other (who pets him and has personally worked with him on lead).  His training is consistant and both reward and correction based.

Not even sure I can call it growling.. .as much as it is "grumbling".  When we come home from training he walks in to our pack of dogs grumbling/ growling.  He is off-leash on our property when not in the house.  We have visitors (LOTS OF THEM) to our home and he is totally fine, happy guy.... but put him on lead and he sounds like an ignorant bastard.

My only attempt to curb the behavior at this point is telling him to "hush" or "knock it off" (I was told using a lead correction may make the problem worse) ... as well, having all new people he meets offer him treats (which does not always work).... but I really want to get in his head and figure this out... I NEED to figure this out so I can further his training.  He's doing so amazing with his obedience that my next step was to work on some AKC titles and his BH... but no way in hell I can have a stand for exam with a grumbling ass!!!

Any thoughts?

Does there really seem to be no difference between the way he

grumbles/growls at the first Trainer, and the noises he makes

when he re-joins the rest of your pack ?

Could be two different, but coincidental, scenarios here:

1) that he just does not 'like' Trainer One - and without contact,

hasn't been given an opportunity to override that.  Who knows

why some dogs take against some people ?  It isn't compulsory

to love everyone we meet, why should it be any different for dogs ?

Many would say that we should listen to our dogs when they take

against somebody, that they are usually right, that person isn't as

good as they might seem !  Its a bit unusual for a dog to swear at

anyone they just feel neutral about;  so this could be a dominance

thing if you look into it more carefully, or it could be a fear thing.

2)  With your family of dogs, it is almost certainly the dominance

version.  You need to look at the behaviour of the other dogs towards

him.  While concentrating on his grumbling, you might well be missing

some subtle provocation from another individual.  At 3 he is likely at the

peak of his maturity, so it isn't surprising if he shows these behaviours

now, rather than earlier.

The thing about him being OK with all & sundry visitors unless he is on

lead sounds to me like "something is going down the lead" from you.

Maybe you should think about that possibility, perhaps you have started

to expect that he'll growl, and he's picking some confirmation up from that ?  

Try to isolate when exactly that problem started, it might help you.  I agree

it won't help to try to take him for any sort of assessments while this is

happening.

I won't try to advise you about what to do with him, how to train him out

of it, because it is folly IMO to do that at long range with a dog I cannot

see and assess 'in person'.  But I would strongly suggest you study the

possibilities for the why and the when, before you do anything else.

Expect others will have more / different ideas, and suggest you find a

Trainer with specific experience and interest in aggressive & problem

behaviours,  but FWIW I honestly think you might be able to sort this

out yourself at this early stage, if you can get to the reason(s) behind the

'swearing' then proceed accordingly, maybe with 'distraction' techniques.

Not knowing how you train leaves me at a great disadvantage but I will say this, focus and obedience is key to any situation.

My guess is you have unknowingly given him the knowledge that his growling has power and he has now taken it home with him.

When a dog growls at someone they have not had previous contact with there is a reason for that, respect it.

Unless he is growling at everyone, which is a separate problem.

The dog senses something about the individual that you do not, and your concern has reinforced the growling power the dog now feels.

Control over your dog and obedience is the greater issue, you must focus on that more than a growl because the dog senses that too.

Stop letting strangers bribe your dog with treats, it is counter productive.

Instead allow certain experienced qualified individuals to groom and examine the dog with and without you being present.

Do not reward the growl with a reaction, concern, fear etc.

Take away the power, learn how not to be read by the dog, acquire what I call your poker face.

You cannot, and should not try to control a dogs natural desire for dominance if this is a part of the problem, you must instead learn how to control situations where this could present problems both on and off the leash.

Obedience is the key for the dog, for you the key is inderstanding the dog and the situation.

You may need to make certain changes and take precautions within your pack if dominance is becoming an issue.

Respect the dogs dominance, respect his judgement where strangers are concerned, make him respect you and your authority over him.

Don't let someone tell you these are bad things that require serious extreme corrections, all that is required is his obedience and focus on you and a tolerance of certain individuals, grooms, judges, vets, etc.

They learn more from you than you realize, and once the cat's out of the bag it's very hard, sometimes impossible to put it back, so think things through before you react and keep that poker face on at all times.

Next time the dog growls at someone give a sharp No, then abruptly change positions in a new location and don't force contact, a sit command with some time to think is a correction, three to five minutes, then resume normal activities without fanfare.

Keep his focus on you at all times, keep him guessing at your next move, keep your poker face on and be aware of what's going on without any outward expression that the dog can pick up on.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thank you both for your in depth replies.   I appreciate it.  My initial reaction to the first growling was to "correct" it by a snap on the prong collar... which I since have learned may have caused agitation instead of correction to behavior.  In an attempt to remove me completely out of the picture with the corrections, I have moved to an e-collar (just yesterday).  His actions do not intimidate me or make me fearful... it is the reaction of others that had me worried (i.e. that certainly would "run through the lead").  His focus is good, but not excellent - again, hopeful the e-collar will help with this.  When we first arriving at  training he makes every attempt to let everyone know he is there.

At home, he certainly could be vying for the leadership role in my pack with the dominant female being 10 years old, and two 4 year old bitches.  An example of a home situation.... Today, He was lying next to me on the floor, when one of the younger females approached us... that brought a raised lip with the growl.  My reaction was to shove him away and send him to the other side of the room (away from me).  I want him to be protective of me, but not in his own pack... and he needs to know "I am not his bitch"... lol.

I am working on this with my trainers, but just wondering what everyone's insights were on this.  He is a (lean) 98lb brute and I am 5'2".  I do not have any trouble controlling him, as I am well aware obedience is the key and his obedience is very good.  Hopefully the new training techniques will allow me to initiate a deeper/quicker focus.

Thank you again for your input!

 

You will not get a deeper/quicker focus with a shock device.

I don't think you understand how to gain focus, this certainly is not the way.

The same goes for a sharp yank on a prong collar, done incorrectly, you do more harm than good.

Him growling at your four year old bitch is a whole other lesson.

Perhaps your trainers will have some expert advice on this.

( In an attempt to remove me completely out of the picture with the corrections, I have moved to an e-collar )

Now that I know a little bit more about how you train I have no further insight to offer.

This is not how I train dogs and I see no way to help you or your dog at this point.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Amy with what you have said, like Moons neither can I help you. I don't understand any trainning plan with my dog that I am not the BOSS IN CHARGE.

If you could explain why you don't want that, perhaps other ideas can be offered to you to control the problem.

An remote correction will not allow you to be in control with this problem.

I definately did not explain that properly... I am his boss.  He is required to focus on me.  After I re-read that it sounded as ridiculous to you as it did to me.

I have  used E-collars before as my corrections are not that strong;  therefore for me the E-collar has been a really good tool.  However what Moon said is true about in this case probably is not your best tool.  Not sure what would be or how to solve the problem if it were my dog BUT sometimes for aggression the E-collar can make things escalate.  On the other side of the coin I have broken up a nasty dog fight more than once with the E-collar and have trained an awesome recall with the E-collar.  So can you let us know your progress with this problem.  Will be very helpful to many I am sure.  Thanks for sharing  Nan

Corrections do not need to be strong if they are done smart, correctly, with proper timing and thought put into them.

Smart will always be better than strong.

If the dog doesn't understand, it is an exercise in futility.

What you end up with using a device more often than not is a reaction, limited learning, and some fear based obedience.

I have used devices myself for very specific problems, it is a powerful tool, and sometimes it can also go wrong teaching something you didn't plan on.

It can also become a crutch, an easy short-cut to what could have been a constructive learning experience.

One needs to think these things out ahead of time and have a plan, or your just blowing in the wind, too much falls to chance.

You can unknowingly get the wrong reaction, teach the wrong lesson.

In this case I think the dog has learned that a growl has power and he is now attempting to call the shots using his new found knowledge, (among other things).

One of the greatest secrets of training an intelligent animal is not letting it know what your thinking, and believe me they can if your not very good at keeping it hidden.

The next secret is having a plan in advance, and several counter plans as things might progress, you gotta be smarter than the animal your training.

It's all about communicating and understanding between the two, this requires focus, without it your lost.

You must have a plan, you must also set up situations to implement those plans and not leave things to chance, sometimes it requires another (helper) to create these situations.

A skilled helper is equally important in creating a situation and carrying out a plan, aspecially where such E devices are to be used.

The biggest mistake I see most often is people don't begin early enough with basics when the dog is still a puppy, the first six months are more important than any other time in the dogs life.

The second biggest mistake are the gimmicks, the short-cuts, and lack of training knowledge, and so called expert trainers who take short-cuts and use gimmicks.

How can you correct something if you don't understand what the real problem is and where it's coming from.

I would train, if I could train the owners first, before they ever lay eyes on a new pup, this never happens and more often than not both owner and pup are learning the lessons together as they go and many mistakes are made along the way, then they need help correcting problems that could have been avoided.

The dog learns faster and ends up in control, a bad lesson to unlearn, sometimes impossible to fix without extreme measures as both owner and dog need to unlearn the mistakes and start over from scratch.

A great waste of time and energy, stressful and frustrating for both.

 

I say this to everyone, no one specific, the forum is full of mistakes looking for a cure and I feel more for the dogs than the people who are responsible for them in most situations.

The first mistake is always a human mistake and not the dogs.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I think you hit the nail on the head there Two Moons .....

In this case I think the dog has learned that a growl has power and he is now attempting to call the shots using his new found knowledge, (among other things).

He will never call the shots....thats a fact.  I will keep you posted as to his progress.