UK guidence for newcomer - Page 1

My name is Reece and for the past couple of years i have been tirelessly searching for the perfect, well balanced all round dog. I knew from a young age i would want to become a owner/handler of a herding type breed. After much research and debate i decided upon a GSD. I have always had a very keen interest in canines and knew what was necessary and what wasn't. I am a strong believer in the fact that a animal should have a purpose and be as true to that original form as possible which these days is very rare in gsd. I have selected a gsd by elimination of other similar breeds. For example A real border collie (working) is not a pet and i do not think should ever be kept as a pet as this is a pure working animal. I was very interested in a dutch shepherd and the belgian malinois but again i feel these are 100% working breeds and is generally unfair to keep as a pet. (By this i am reffering to the majority of standard everyday homes, i know there can be exceptions). I have spoke to many breeders both UK based and international regarding the gsd as i am wanting a dog that Is not 100% show line but at the same time not going to be 100% working. My reasoning for this is i am after a balanced animal that has a brain and can use it which i am sure you will agree is a well bred shepherd. I do not want a full show animal due to primarily health concerns and lack of its original roots. 
 
I am only 21 however i have a passion for bringing the best out in any animal and have worked dogs for the majority of my life. This has included obedience, gundog trailing, herding, agility and brief protection work. I have worked with a wide variety of breeds and feel i can handle all professionally and appropriately. I have recently become a homeowner and am seeking the perfect animal to join me. This in turn has lead me to yourselves. As previously mentioned i am looking for a healthy animal with minimal risk of later problems common in the breed, as well as a dog that is from quality lines that is eager to work and please. I want to compete with whatever dog i acquire and so the strong genes are essential to provide the brain desired. 
 
I have narrowed the breeders down to just 2 UK breeders within the UK as i would like to meet the ancestors and view the kennels. I have picked these 2 also based on the lines of the breed, pedigree history, overall health and due to their natural passion and knowledge of the breed.

The first selected breeder is called Merjuke. These people go over and beyond when it comes to the upkeep and wellbeing of their animals, they even breed and use there own chickens to have the finest eggs for their dogs. The socialisation they give to their pups is also second to none. I will not list there site out of respect but if you just google merjuke shepherds you will quickly see what i am referring to.

Now the 2 dogs they will be breeding are not on pdb but will be soon as and when they are uploaded however their parents are so i will list those for your viewing.

so the mums side is as follows, this is the to be pups mums  mum (hope you get that) so the new pups grandmother.
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=535785-mayanser-riot-at-terschlads

and this is the pups , mums dad (so their grandfather)
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=507011

so the above 2 mated and made the dam who would be mother to my potential pup.

now the fathers side:
this is the dads dad (grandfather to new pups)
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=651993-champion-conbhairean-waro

and the fathers mum:
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=737066-merjukes-hope

so they are more working x show line which maybe perfect?

now the other breeder is kazzardsway, now the male dog in this breeding i like and im sure some of you will of heard of:

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=634030-vongalanberg-kai

and the mother would be

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=557980-kazzardsway-amber

so the above 2 would be parents to the new potential pup.

On the back of this which would you guys go for and why. I am wanting a dog whom i will be doing shuhtzhund training (and hopefully competing) with. But at the same time though i will be spending allot of time each day with the dog it wont be all day due to work commitments. This is why i am thinking the first breeding maybe slightly better as they maybe a notch lower on overall demands. Health is my primary concern but workability is also important.

so to summarise thanks for reading and any help input and advice is very much appreciated, i have done my own research and looked very far into the lines of both these pairings going back to great grea great great grandparents and 5,6th cousins etc but i just need that bit of guidence to iron out things i may have missed.

Many thanks,
Reece.

Reece, there aren't too many of us in the UK posting at the moment;
so you may not get much response (look how slow its been before I
dared bite the bullet   LOL !).

They are out there, 'lurking', reading posts, I'm sure  (Hi boys n girls !!).

Firstly, hello and welcome to the PDB.  Hope you get as much as possible
 out of being a member.

Secondly,  thanks and well done for being a prospective buyer who has
bothered to do the necessary research 'homework' - especially if you
are looking at GSDs for the first time.  Refreshing .

So if you have done that 'due diligence' you will already presumably have
realised that both the breeders you are looking at are smaller and less
well established than some of the older, larger Kennels ?  Not necessarily
a 'bad' thing, but there is less to go on 'historically' in terms of Showing or
Working successes, customer relations skills, etc etc than with 'older'
establishments.  Bear in mind that this could be a nudge to make sure
you tie up all the paperwork and agreements properly with your purchase,
in case of later problems.

There isn't so much of a Work/Show difference over here as appears on PDB
when our US cousins are discussing their lines.  Being as how the vast majority
of stock in the UK is still West German Show Lines, rather than imports from
the old DDR, Czech Republic, Serbia and so on.  Although there are some around.

Now, I don't pretend to be any kind of 'expert' on GSD 'families', just an interested
and informed owner and lover of the breed,  but a quick look at most of the named
dogs you have put up says primarily 'Showdogs' to me, and you say you are definitely
going to do Schutzhund / IPO;  so the one dog who immediately grabbed my attention
in these pairings is Vongalenburg Kai.  Now there is a working dog, and better still he
is a good specimen of the GSD too.  If you haven't already, you can see videos on here
of him;  User-Search 'Fozzie' to find links, sorry I haven't time & skill at the moment to
link them for you.  Ashley is very good at supplying excellent films of him working his
 & his father's dogs, they make super instructive viewing.  (No he didn't pay me to say
that !).  

Personally, if I were buying a puppy tomorrow (and all other things being equal - which sadly
they no longer are, I haven't the health to do it, which is why I won't be in the market !),
I would go for the second mating.  Yes the pups might be a bit 'livelier' []  but I would
be more comfortable  with the breedworth of the ancestry.  My current dog (11 today, Yay !!!)
has always had more drive and energy than really would have been ideal for his lifestyle with
me (my excuse is he's a 'rescue', I didn't go and choose him !) ... but then I am not a novice
owner.

You need to be honest with yourself over this point.  You do not tell us how much contact you
have had with the breed before deciding it is the one you want.  I know there is a first time for
everybody, but I truly would never actively recommend starting with a GSD, much less a Working
-bred one, as an introduction to the breed.  Too many end up on the scrapheap of rescue when
the new owner finds they cannot cope with the demands for time / attention / training by such a
pup; especially if they are holding down a 'normal' job, too, and cannot be there enough.  I hope
your attention to detail and level of concern prove that you won't fall into this trap ?

Because you told us you are 21, I would say there is plenty of time for you to get actual GSD ownership
under your belt, before you 'reach for the sky'.  Perhaps an older animal ?
Having said all that :  hope some other posters bring further thoughts on these matings to the
table for you.  And I do wish you the very best of luck, with whatever you end up doing about
your quest.

 

I have sent mail to your post box on this database recommending someone for you to discuss your needs with.  I am sure that you will find them interesting as they are very knowledgeable and produce some very good animals.

Mackenzie

Thanks to both of you for replying, very much appreciated. I have viewed thousands literally (no exaggeration) of videos of the breed primarily competition in working but also training showing the natural instincts etc. as a result I have seen several videos of Kai working and he seems a very stable and capable dog. I still have allot of searching to do despite doing countless hours before making a "set in stone" decision. I do agree the second pairing seems to have allot of potential however something is still drawing me to mercury I think due to their passion for the breed having speaking to them. I will look into your mail Mackenzie and see where I go from there. 

There's some good thought but a bit of craziness in the process. At some point in time you have to wind up with what you want. Deciding what you will ultimately be happy with by looking at the pedigree on paper is perhaps a good place to start,,,but you have to see what the combination produced to see if there's something even close to what you expected. Add to that you'll probably be getting the pup at 8 weeks and getting the right dog for your intended purpose has gone from being a long shot to being a longer shot.

Your first example is a mish mash. Who knows what you would get? There are some excellent genetics on the conformation side of the mother, bred to working lines,,,,what do you get? Who knows. Those that have done it in the past generally wind up with something not really desirable for the field or for the ring. Some exceptions, 1/1000 maybe. If you are one of the lucky very few, what would you do with it in your breeding program? Nothing to build on this generation or the next. How long would it be before you had something you could consider consistent? Many good breeders have made the attempt. None have lasted through the process.

Second choice looks like a working combination. Just have to see what comes out in the litter.

What you describe in your goals sounds like the universal concept. A dog with correct structure that has the ability to work while it can be content in the family situation. There are many, many of these types of dogs out there. There are breeders of both working and conformation lines that embrace this concept and strive to produce dogs of this type. Find those breeders and talk directly with them.

Reece,

You are very studious!  You seem to know what your goals are: Pedigree potential, H/E free (DM,
screening for Dwarfism, coat), workability, possible IPO competition, inquiring mind, and experience.
You have many positive directions in selecting your future pup. I did not look at the pedigrees you
attached.

I would only add to your arsenal is to view parents, litter and be very selective on your ideal pup.  Do
not limit yourself to one breeder and search elsewhere. Shipping is do-able. Position yourself to
pick-of-the-litter. This gives you your choice. Get feedback from litters' owner via video, observation,
weekly litter weight, puppy testing, record of vaccinations/micro chip, guarantee in writing, full-dentition,
etc.  You probably know all this important information already, I am just reinforcing it for you. When you
do get him/her, establish a bond with a clear hierarchy.

You mentioned the 'downtime' (hopefully) of your dog during employment. So I would think crate training,
video monitoring, possible older dog mate to babysit, toys and  exercise/training. My dog has his own room
in the house (dog proof) with outdoor access to the yard when I am not physically present.  Otherwise,
he is with me 24/7. He is independent at times and chooses to stay or go lounge outside.

It can be very rewarding just by researching. You will know the breeder too on their breeding ethics,
"are they 'walking the walk, talking the talk' ". Good luck on your decision making-you are off to a good start!

I would not consider a showline/working line mix for Schutzhund, it rarely works, especially on the first generation.  If you seriously want to compete in Schutzhund rather than play at it, go to a few clubs and see the dogs in training, see if it's what you really want to do as it is is a very time consuming sport.  If you are still keen to do it, go to a breeder that actively trains in the sport, you are far more likely to get a dog that can actually do it well from someone who knows what they would be looking for if they were choosing one.  Looking good on paper simply isn't enough.


Margaret N-J

Reece, you are getting excellent advice from the posters who followed
my contribution.  Margaret seriously works her dogs and knows what
she's about;  and ddrgsd has an especially good point about making
sure the breeders "walk the walk" as well as "talk the talk".

a) stick with working lines if you're ipo-bound. it'll make your life much, if not immeasurably, easier at every turn

b) i've had ugo sons and grandsons and i got a male old going back to ugo through condor sleeping beside me as i type. it's a wonderful line but there are a few inherent issues you probably ought to be aware of, especially if you're doubling up on ugo:
    i) there is a bit of 'nerve' in that line
    ii) there is the likelihood of above average pano bouts
   iii) there is the possibility of slow(er) maturation

i like the second pairing, on paper, but you really need to verify that clear headedness and health are not compromised. also, you'll need to keep an eye on size as the offspring should be strong but at the lower end of mittlelgross, which matters more so if you got an eye on universal trials. finally, you ought to find training help that has igor/ugo experience as recognizing certain traits as line-specific is critical in successfully working through them, on and off the field, which is actually quite easy to do. overall, the second paring should give you a quite trainable, balanced, super fun dog with way above average speed, excellent full grips, guts, heart and a love to fight, a deep nose, and a pretty nice off switch. 

good luck


 

Ah guys thanks so much to every one of you so far. Combining my own existing knowledge and extensive research and natural interest and passion for canines as a whole combined with all your valued expertise i feel i am on the right tracks. I am genuinely putting into play everything each of you has advised me and progressing in my own findings. The information direct on the pairing from bebo is most useful and invaluable being first hand. The only slight concern i have which is gradually being ironed out is that i had initially being told that getting a SL X WL would be ideal as it may not be as highly strung. Now due to being a breeder and exhibitor of other animals i was totally aware this by no means meant that i would get the best traits of both but took their advice anyway. However the most recent breeders i have mentioned this to as well as all of you have confirmed that generally i would be better getting a wl x wl. The few breeders i am in touch with at present are very open and honest and have also confirmed this. i would be interested to know more of your views on this and maybe based on personal experience. i understand some of you have said a SL x WL can be good for competition but to do it well ( i think is fair to say?) is a rarety.

I have always had the passion to encourage my dogs to work and enhance its natural instincts and SCH/IPO is definitely what i am interested in. I have watched trainers (mainly within police force) encourage this type of training and this never fails to amaze me. I just feel it is now a good time to put my dreams and desires into play and work effortlessly to see my dog (to be) perform accordingly. 

again any input is appreciated.

thanks, Reece.