Which is the better way to breed. - Page 1

Hi,
I have a question.
To achieve our goal of further improving the GSD, closer to the standard
Which will be a better way to do it.

a)To get a high  quality, pure working bloodline bitch and
start breeding using only top quality, show bloodlines males.
                                   OR
b) To get a high quality pure show bloodline bitch and
start breeding using only top quality working bloodline males.
                                                                             
 

It is my opinion that all breedings should look at the total dog, no matter what their lines are. What are your definitions of "high quality" on both sides?

Are the "High Quality Showlines" going to all be hump-backed VA siegers that have crappy temperments, and barely passed any of their titles, OR nicely structured, V dogs with a well-rounded, stable temperament, and that work like the WL's? (It''s a bit sad that I consider the V sl's nicer than the VA dogs that are supposed to be the cream of the crop, isn't it?)

Are your "High Quality Workinglines" dogs that look like coyotes, with insane drives that can't shut off, and  the second a situation gets "real" are shitting themselves, but they are getting perfect scores on the SchH field, OR are they V-rated dogs, with amazing temperments that can be trusted anywhere AND do any kind of work that is asked of them, be it police, schutzhund, herding, SAR,etc.?

"High Quality" is a phrase that can be interpreted in any way. A dog I consider high quality might be crap in someone else's eyes, and vice versa. I think more information is needed to answer your question, however I will say that, again, the TOTAL DOG should be looked at in every breeding. We are losing what this breed is all about, because of single-minded breeders. If I had a nice WL bitch, and happened to find a nice SL that would compliment her in every aspect - health, temperament, workability, conformation, etc. - I would have no problems breeding her to him just because they're lines are different.

Now let's see how many dislikes this post gets. LOL

At least one "like" from me...

GOOD post, Dawolf, in most ways.  I certainly will not be checking
the Dislike button.  But one generalisation you made is something
I'd argue against - when you talk about poor temperament in the VA
'Siegers',  WHICH  (countries') VA1s are you talking about  ?;  and how
many of those have you had your own hands on, anyway  ?   

See, I don't know about other nations' top dogs each year ;  I only know
about the British Sieger, plus what I hear about the 'original' ones, the
German dogs (+ Siegerins, of course), just across the Channel.   And it
does seem to me that those dogs' temperaments are almost always exemplary ...

Thanks.

Hundmutter, I did not meaning that all VA's have poor temperament, it was just another thing I used to describe a dog. I've met showlines with temperament I would consider subpar... in fact unfortunately most of the showline's I've met are that way, but a few are nice, and I know nice ones do exist. And yes, the owner of those SL's I'd consider having sub-par, temperaments bragged and bragged about them being high quality, son or daughter of VA such and such, imported from overseas, etc. etc.

Just like not all of those V-rated workinglines I mentioned in that post have amazing temperaments, nor will all of the coyote ones have that insane crazy drive that won't let them settle down. That was just how I chose to describe those different ends of the spectrum, it was not meant to degrade anyone.

The best way to breed is to strive for healthy dogs capable of real work, breeding for a certain look/structure that wins in shows or just because you find it nice and pretty has no purpose if bettering the breed as a robust workingdog is the purpose.

However ... (Johan)  - there is no harm in breeding dogs that
look good, provided that you are also breeding for dogs with
solid temperaments, good brains, and fine working abilities.

Hundmutter, we do understand each other...
There are more than enough German Shepherds out there - and if someone isn´t able to find two German Shepherds able to work and fitting within the standard, he or she shouldn´t breed. Plain and simple.

Totally agree that it has to come down to the particular dogs and there is NO WAY to answer that with the given information.

I will tell of my recent breeding and what made me do it, however. My foundation female (pure working lines) threw very strong females, females like herself. Most of her pups were more like clones than offspring. Great for uniformity, but not always easy to choose proper studs when they often don't seem to matter anyway, lol. Thus, when I was looking for a sire for her daughter's pups, I wanted one to complement what would likely be very strong tendencies in certain areas. Since I knew that it was highly likely that the dam line would bring very prepotent/strong genetics for particular traits, I was careful selecting a male that would balance the strength of some of those traits while solidifying others. I knew that a stud would have to have very strong genetics to "make an impact" on this female, if past breedings are any indication.

So, I first found a male I really liked (in person, not from pics and video!) and thought would complement well, then I looked into his bloodlines and verified that his sire was known for passing on his exemplary temperament and that the genetics seemed to be prepotent. He is a show line dog. I am far from an expert on his lines, so I sought opinions from several more knowledgeable and got the green light; all stated that the lines were known for strong production of excellent temperament and also had good working ability. I was less concerned about working ability because I know this girl is strong enough in the drive area to carry her side and then some! I was pleasantly surprised at the sire's level of drive and overall work ethic.  My goal with this cross was to make the pups a bit more "user friendly" without watering them down. My female is a bit aloof and can be "edgy" for lack of a better word. She has some aggression. I like this, but if I bred her to a male that had lesser nerves (which I wouldn't do, but you never know what's lurking in the shadows where genetics are concerned!) I was afraid that her edge could turn into something undesirable. What if the pups got her aggression without her strength of nerve and discernment? What if they were nervous types but had a lot of aggression? Not good! So, a super confident male with little suspicion and a very "open" temperament is what I wanted, from lines that were known to produce outstanding temperament. 

Did it work? I have no flipping idea. They're only 2 days old!   But I thought my thought process was relevant to the question as asked. 

There is no harm as long as the good looking dogs have an anatomy that is designed for a long healthy life, but I doubt the structure that many say are good looking or wins in shows are the best design for this, if it was we would see it in other workingdogs and also the more early GSDs that had less influence of what people felt the dogs should look like. With that said I don´t mind a good looking GSD, but for me good looking is a natural dog in body first, then the little extra like a nice pigmention, nice head and so on are a bonus. However, I guess if you have a certain look high on your priority it´s harder to reach your goal as a whole because you have more things to consider, I would also say few dogs that have the structural natural "base" I prefer are so uggly in other parts that I would not breed it, but I agree a real uggly dog that isn´t superior in other areas are no point in breeding. So in short a certain consideration to good looking dogs are probably fine, but this strive for "good looks" must be a look that aren´t a hindrance for the dog as a healthy workingdog.