Advice on raising a GSD puppy who - Page 1

Hello, 

I am looking to bring a GSD puppy into my life again soon.   I have raised two GSD puppies in the past and feel I still have a lot to learn on how to effectively socialize these pups so that they can get out and play with my friend's and family's dogs.  

I had more success with my male than with my female, but truth be told, I was always a little nervous to have either of them around new dogs.  Even my male who was less aggressive bit two dogs.  Once was an accident when playing with a labradoodle ( a quick move from the labradoodle while they were mouthing each other and there was a little hole in it's thin skin ).  The other time it was intentional.  My boy had some dog friends, but it was never a super easy meeting, unless it was an old dog.  Also, seemed like both GSDs were much less aggressive with smaller dogs. 

Both were pretty growly when being walked in parks.  Though with my male we were able to mostly eliminate this behavior by some pinch collar training.  

Part of the issue was likely that we lived in the country, removed from other dogs, for a good part of their puppyhood.  I took them both to puppy training classes with the hope of socializing them, but it obviously wasn't enough. 

I LOVE this breed for so many reasons, but I would really enjoy having my next dog be one who could get along with others. It became a stressful situation for me, which only made the issue worse as my boy was so in tune with how I was feeling.  

I don't know a bunch of GSD owners so wonder if this is just normal behavior for the breed. Do any of you have super sweet GSD who are sweet to other animals, not just you?  Or does anyone have any suggestions whether it be classes, books, techniques, etc. that they have found effective.  

Thank you so much for your input.  I really want to do a better job as an owner in this respect with my next puppy. 





 

All dogs do not play together nicely period.
 

Alison, if you want to own dogs of a big active working breed, it comes
as standard that you HAVE to be prepared to be on top of stuff like this.  
Moons is so right;  you cannot rely on any dog to always get on well
(in human terms) with every other dog it happens to meet, however 'sweet'
tempered.  Not in 'the nature of the beast'.

Having said that, yes, there are some things you can do to REDUCE
the likelihood of your new pup getting into scraps.
1  You are right that if you & your dog live anywhere that s/he only rarely
gets opportunities to meet and socialise with other dogs, that definitely
does not help them relate to strangers.  Been there, got the T.

2  Assuming you aren't going to move to a built-up area, LOL,  get the pup
enrolled in a good, all-breeds puppy training class, asap.  [Then stick with it!]
This will not only help her learn to get on with a variety of other dogs of all
shapes and sizes, it will help you get the knowledge about how to have her
under your control properly at all times.  And make some efforts to meet other
dogs outside of the class, to increase your dog's ability to relate or ignore them,
by habituation.

3  Do not expect, EVER, that you can just let your dog play with others he meets,
even when he already knows them well, without keeping a very close eye on what
they are doing and the body language being expressed, and being ready to step
in early and remove your dog from the situation if you get ANY inkling it is going
to escalate.  That means:  no getting distracted by immersing yourself in conversation
with the other dog's owner, no talking on your cell-phone, no anything except watch-
ing your dogs closely.


I'll tell you about my own dogs to help illustrate these points [bear in mind these
are only the two GSDs that have lived with me full time,  out of many dogs handled,
and boarded, or supervised in outside kennels]:

Both mine have had good basic Obedience Training, and more, both trained as adults.
Both have been subject to varying degrees of isolation from other dogs, and its only
me at home, no other animals now - did used to have an old cat with the first GSD
but they learned to get along together  : ).

My current boy is very tolerant with all bitches, although when he first meets them he
always wants to do nothing but shag them, which can lead to conflict (!), until he and they
get very used to each other.  He does not extend the same tolerance to other males,
and although he rarely tries to bite them he does have an inclination to roll them up and
play football with them, if small enough, or chase them away with his head very firmly
over their neck if they are larger.  Needless to say he does not get many opportunities
to meet / play with male dogs.  Occasionally he surprises me and takes a liking to some
other male and gets on consistently great with it - never sure why that will be, something
in dog language clearly passes between them, about not challenging his dominance ?,
which I can only guess at. (They don't have to be neutered, for example).  Needless to say
he is kept under very close control until I see how its going to go with any other dog,
before I allow them to play together.  And even then, see above about keeping a watchful
eye.

My previous GSD was a nervous, often bad-tempered bitch, who could never be entirely
trusted with anyone or anything.  But she was 'sweet' with me.  And at least remained
consistent friends with any person or dog once she had  accepted them.  Luckily I lived
in  urban 'civilisation' when I first got her [aged 3.5 yrs] so there were good opportunities
for training class, lots of contact with other dogs in streets and parks, and at dog shows.  
I found by trial and error that the best way to deal with her timidity and aggression with
other dogs was to 'swamp' her with lots of dogs that I already knew I could trust to be
good natured & tolerant with her, and likewise their owners.  I am forever grateful for all
their help.  
I was looking at old photos of her in the park with up to 13 of them at a time, the other day.  
This is NOT a method I would recommend to anyone who is unsure about what they are
doing;  the circumstances have to be right, and you have to be sure you can command
your dog, and handle any aggressive situations without panicking.

Hope this helps, maybe something in here you can use.

Whilst our breed has many virtues, they plain & simple are not labradoodles. They are GSD. Part of that includes a dominant nature that has been deliberately bred into the temperament of the breed. Which is not to say bad behavior should be tolerated, but they are not dogs that you can turn out into the yard with your best buds dogs, & expect everything will be OK. Their instinct is to protect you & your property. A confident dog should not be reactive, or aggressive in play; but in reality you must always be vigilant! No matter how well socialized, if you have the slightest doubt about your dog, just keep them in a down at your side, which is where they prefer to be anyway!
jackie harris

Thanks for your input, I realize that they aren't "cuddly" with other dogs by nature, but I have seen a handful who were even able to play nicely even in a dog park situation (WHICH IS NOT MY GOAL, I actually don't care for these parks).  

Mostly I would like a GSD dog who will get along with another dog in our home, and one who will be able to play nicely with a few close friends who also have dogs.  I really want a puppy, but I wonder if I should consider adopting a shepherd mix to hope for a bit less aggressive mix?  That really isn't what I want to do, as I have loved the past GSDs of mine so much, but I do like to be able to bring my dog with me wherever I go, when possible.  So many of the social events we attend are at friend's houses, with another dog or two.  

Do you think that showline vs working lines make any difference with this aspect of the GSD? 

Thanks for sharing your perspectives and experiences. 

Besides the true things that have been said by others, dog aggression or lack thereof is often genetic. I, personally, cannot stand dog aggression. I have a smallish house and several dogs; I do not tolerate dog aggression. I do not think it is correct temperament. I will not own, keep, or breed a dog aggressive dog. Many think it's not a big deal; having separated dogs 24/7 for many years, I disagree. How many dogs are given up for aggression to other animals in the home?

My foundation female is not dog aggressive in the least. Her pups have not been, either.  I'm sure out of all of them there are one or two that might be a smidge that way, but the vast majority are wonderfully non-DA and I'm proud of that. My females, ie, mom and daughters get along fine. Almost all my dogs I've bred live in harmony with other dogs in the household, dogs of all sizes. As I said, I'm proud of this and think it's something under-emphasized in breedings. I've passed on really great studs because I found out they were highly dog aggressive or had a reputation for producing it.

So, there's a fair amount of thought that goes into the genetics, but there is a LOT of handling savvy involved.   Now, this is not to say that they won't fight. Dog aggression and willing to fight are two very very very different things. If your dog is not genetically dog aggressive, ie, hardwired to just want to kill every other dog it sees, then it's a simple matter of training and what you will or will not tolerate. I would never take my dogs to a dog park. They don't "play" with strange dogs. They are totally neutral to other dogs, ignoring them completely unless the dog does something to change that. This is perfect, in my eyes. I don't want my dogs playing with other dogs or wanting to when they should be focusing on me and what we're doing at the time. People bring dogs to my house; my dogs ignore them. If they start stink-eyeing another dog, I tell them to leave it. They obey. So...genetics plus control, again.

Also, a weaker nerved dog will be more likely to get aggressive toward other dogs out in public, in my experience. What you're describing is simply a matter of a really good dog, genetically, plus YOUR CONTROL over the situation. I've worked supposedly "dog aggressive" dogs that I had no problem with; I didn't change that dog gentically; I simply handled it differently than the owner. If you don't think you're ready to do that, then maybe a more docile breed is for you, however, what you're describing really isn't that big of a deal and I'd hate to see you miss out on what you really want because you're afraid of dog aggression. I'd choose a line known for NOT producing it and go from there; working or show has little to do with it.

Thanks Jenni, 

That is comforting to hear.  I am completely willing and able to put in the time for obedience training and I plan to do that.  When I raised my other GSDs I was in my early 20's and not really knowing the breed at that time, I admit that I should've done more with training from the START.  With my last dog, the male, we got more serious about this training a bit later (which was too late in many regards, though helped correct a number of bog issues). 

I think I need to focus on finding a breeder who shares Jenni's philosophy and then make training a priority from the beginning and continue to do so throughout the dog's life.  I will be reading more, listening to more people's experiences as well.  

I wonder if the dogs that my puppy meets early, when he is still a puppy, will be more likely to be "friends" even when he is older.  That makes sense to me, but I know there are no guarentess. 

Thanks again! 

If dogs get along well as puppies and that continues through
puberty without problems, they will probably continue to get
along for ever.  But not if they are then parted for a long time
when they don't see each other - you cannot just bring them
back together after say 6 months and hope all will be exactly
as before.  It might be, but don't rely on that, don't be surprised
if it isn't.  Especially with 2 of the same sex.  And even if they
are never out of sight of each other for longer than a few hours,
the situation can still explode unexpectedly.  You have to be
clued up on the body language and very careful, even with doggy
long-term friends, relatives and so on.

Jenni's post is very sensible, glad you've agreed to follow her
advice.

I do it a bit differently than most. I don't let my pups meet strange dogs. I don't trust people with their dogs. They haven't a clue what their dog's temperament really is, 9 times out of 10. I take pups out, but I teach them indifference, not acceptance. I can expound on this if you're interested.

I only let my pups interact with my own dogs. My pups I breed are in the company of sound, stable adult dogs from day 1. They are allowed to play with their dam, my old male, my male Pit (he has so much more patience of them than their mother after a few weeks! LOL) and my Chihuahuas. They learn manners from each of them and to respect boundaries. This is CRITICAL; many dogs are bitten or attacked because of poor manners with strange dogs. By restricting what kinds of experiences they have, I can ensure that when they go home, they won't have an overly-defensive reaction to other dogs and they will view dogs in their home as neutral allies.

Again, neither my adults nor my pups indiscriminately are allowed to play with strange dogs. I can, however, take them into someone else's home and be assured that they will behave themselves toward the other dogs in the home. So, do be careful how you raise your pup. Most puppy classes are a disaster, full of poorly bred and socialized dogs and they're very chaotic; I would avoid them. Take your dog out, instead, to coffee shops, downtown shopping, places where they'll be exposed to things and dogs but likely WELL-BEHAVED dogs. The maniacs and ones with bad temperament are usually not a Starbuck's, etc. I just teach my pups to accept things and listen to me, and don't worry too much about trying to expose them to everything imaginable. If they trust you and have a good foundation and good genetics, you don't need to show them everything to feel confident that they'll react appropriately when something comes up out of the ordinary. Communication is key, and whether you realize it or not, you're always communicating to your dog.

Alisoni, before I begin,
NO DOG PARKS !!

Rule #1
There are no set rules here, to many variables, and it's not breed specific.
Rule#2
Training and socializing start as soon as you get your puppy and continue on in a sense, forever.
Rule#3
Well trained dogs ignore other dogs when on the leash, off the leash is altogether different and that's just the way it is, anything could happen no matter what.
Rule #4
Even dogs raised together can get into disputes, over anything.
But dogs who know one another do stand a better chance of getting along, just never take it for granted.
Rule#4
Unless you know what your looking at, regardless of what a breeder tells you, picking the right pup is a gamble, pure luck.
Unless you know what your looking at.
Again, none of this is breed specific.
Rule #5
Train with time tested methods, don't buy into every new fad, it's not rocket science.
It takes patience and love, and sometimes strength.

GSD's have certain traits as does each breed, understanding that is the first step.
Training and socializing the second step.

Never let strange dogs around your puppy until it has all it's vaccinations and even then it's a risk unless they are the same age and about the same size, you can do great harm with one mistake in judgement.

Finally,
do not make you dog wear sun glasses, kerchiefs, or funny hats and never embarrass it in public......:)

Moons.