Training a dog vs. 'training' a child - Page 1

Okay, so as a child I had been taught from a young age how to behave around dogs.  Or at least, what not to do to a dog.  We never owned one, but my mom felt it was only smart to tell us what to do, because you never know what situations a stranger's dog has been in.  This became especially true after a dog bit my face when I was little (the dog was a major problem dog around the neighborhood).

So today I'm walking Shelby, and I need a nice woman with 3 kids, and a 6 month old, sweet bullmastiff. Shelby and the puppy were having a nice little meet and greet (lick and sniff), when her youngest kid, a tiny little toddler, grabs Shelby's back skin and pulls really hard on it. Now, Shelby's pretty much the exact opposite of touch sensitive, so she didn't even notice. The kid went away for a few minutes and the mother and I were talking and sharing stories about our puppies, who were just looooving each other. Well, the kid comes back, and was gently petting her, so I figure no big deal. Then he grabs her ear a little roughly and smacks her in the face!

Thank God Shelby is good around kids (we've also tested her resiliency against the kinds of pulling and handling that kids are prone to do- whatever that test is where you gently pull on the tail, rump, and ears) and is willing to tolerate a lot from kids, because again- she didn't even care. But my Lord, it scared the crap out of me, and that kid was not allowed near my dog again. This has been the only kid in my neighborhood (and there are hordes of them) who hasn't handled her in a good manner, and some of the children whom Shelby has interacted with have been younger than this toddler!

So, who on earth lets their kids behave that way towards any animal?? I don't care if my kid has known the dog since he or she was still in diapers, you never ever smack a dog or play roughly with it. It's not just manners, it can save a life!

Ugh, I'm kicking myself letting that dumb kid near Shelby, even if it didn't even phase her. Parents should teach their kids to know better... or at least, watch them to make sure they don't do something stupid. If I watch my dog like a hawk to make sure she doesn't get in trouble, why shouldn't a parent do the same with their kid? -_- Sorry, but just so miffed right now, at myself and the kid.

Most dogs should be neutered or spayed because they are not breed quality, the same for people. Many should not reproduce well maybe most should not reproduce. JMO

UschiRun,

I think you are probably a polite, kind person from reading your posts. Youngish, too. I like that you admit your inexperience as you seek answers. So, I hope you won't be offended when I give my opinion, in whatever I say next. I can be a cranky, old "B", lol.

Let's talk about the woman you met. If her youngest kid, still in diapers hadn't accosted your dog, you probably would have only good things to say about her and her family, pup included. I assume you and your husband do not have children, yet, and Shelby is your 4 legged stand-in at the moment? I am a mom, just so you know. An interesting demographic fact about this site that also puts me in the minority. Any way, I am going to ask a few questions, following your version of events. And follow with what I would have done after you answer.
 

when her youngest kid, a tiny little toddler, grabs Shelby's back skin and pulls really hard on it. Now, Shelby's pretty much the exact opposite of touch sensitive, so she didn't even notice. The kid went away for a few minutes and the mother and I were talking and sharing stories about our puppies, who were just looooving each other.

What we don't know is what you, and or the mom did at the moment the above highlighted part happened? This is actually very, very important when training dogs and children!
 

Well, the kid comes back, and was gently petting her, so I figure no big deal. Then he grabs her ear a little roughly and smacks her in the face!

What was said to the toddler, if anything at this second approach? Was the child praised for petting your dog correctly? What or who corrected the child then?

I think you have a tolerant, and good dog in Shelby, and you are very fortunate. I await your reply before I really make my point. 





 

My priority on meeting small children would be to make absolutely sure the kids knew how to respect my dog, and not do anything that might trigger a bite. Even the best-natured dog can get upset it a kid pulls its ears or pokes a finger in its eyes.

My husband was introducing our GSD, Tasha, to some kids from the Sunday school. One little girl quite deliberately stepped on the dog's tail! I think she was feeling left out, as the dog was getting all the attention.

Luckily, my husband had the dog under good control, because Tasha was never that great with kids. But I think the girl learned an important lesson when the dog lunged and snapped at her!

You just NEVER know what kids are going to do! I have a book by Brian Killcommon, called "Childproofing Your Dog'. His #1 rule is NEVER leave your dog(s) alone with your kids, no matter HOW trustworthy you think they are!

Sunsilver,
I absolutely agree about not leaving kids alone with dogs, regardless of how long they've known it. When a child is alone and wants to pet Shelby, I always talk to them about 1. if their parents let them pet other dogs and whether they have one him/herself, and 2. even if they say yes, I tell them what to do with Shelby because she's still young and is learning. So far, that's always gone well. I tell the kid that if Shelby starts to stand up (we make her sit always) or if she barks or whines, then they have to stop petting her and wait till she does what she's supposed to do.

There's a saying that I love, and I should have remembered it in this situation: "When you assume, it makes an @ss out of 'u' and me." Since the family had a dog, I assumed that all of the children had been taught how to handle their own dog as well as others. Well, I certainly won't be making that mistake again....

Beetree,
When the kid grabbed Shelby's back, I pushed his hand away from her.  I didn't say anything to Shelby since she didn't notice. You're right that I don't have kids, and haven't really been around too many, so I'm not that comfortable with correcting other people's children unless it's something crazy.  
When he started petting her correctly, I did tell him that that was very good and nice for Shelby and that she likes to be petted like that. His mom also praised him for petting her correctly.
When he slapped her, I pulled Shelby away from him, and his mom told him to not do it, but he thought it was hysterical and started laughing.  After that, anytime the kid came close to Shelby, I would sort of place myself between him and Shelby (but I don't think his mom noticed- she was enjoying watching her mastiff and Shelby smell each other).
If you think that there's more that I could do in that kind of situation, please let me know. I have told adults and kids before that they can't pet Shelby, or one reason or another, but those were mostly for Shelby's safety than theirs.

BeeTree brings up some good points (starting with your kind and polite nature!) and asking was there any discipline expressed from the mother towards the child when these undesirable behaviors were expressed?

In most cases, children (especially a toddler still in diapers) are not the problem, the parents are.   More and more we live in a society that expresses very little responsibility or consequences for negative behaviors.  If the child is not given the proper tools for 'good' behavior then how can they truly understand bad behavior?

I grew up around animals and as such as my son (who is now 9) has grown up around animals and has been given a very clear set of rules when it comes to how to act around an animal.   He is now what I would call 'dog neutral' in that when he's around any dogs (even puppies) he ignores them unless invited specifically to interact with them.   But this comes from exposure and my doing my part as a parent to give him rules about dogs, explain why these rules are important and giving him the tools to know how to behave properly.

If the mother in this instance did nothing about her child's behavior, good conversation or not I would have politely extracted myself and my dog from the situation after the first instance.  "This has been a lovely conversation and your puppy is beautiful but mine does not have regular exposure to children and proper socialization is so critical at this juncture."   Not quite as direct as "Hey lady, control your brat" but pointed enough that it might cause the mother to stop and think.

I suppose I've been lucky in that very rarely do people approach my dogs inappropriately, I have been politely asked "may we meet your dog?" but for the most part people maintain a respectful distance unless invited.

UschiRun,

My own "real life" saying is, if you want to keep your friends, "Never tell anyone how to raise their kids, or their dogs." LOL

So, that said....here goes, FWIW:

Ideally, you really don't want to have to avoid this mom who has at least two well-behaved kids and a nice, dog-buddy for your own pup, because of one diaper wearing "hellion". Presumably you could meet again? The mom appears to have some success parenting the other children, she did respond to her toddler's inappropriate behavior when she saw it, so I wouldn't write her off as clueless, just maybe distracted or even exhausted. Can you imagine how it would be with three young kids, plus a puppy? She surely went to the park for a break! And found you and your lovely pup! I bet she made her own assumptions about your experience with dogs, and kids, too. Don't we all? 

Other posters made excellent comments on what can happen, and what you accept as your responsibility. I imagine you want a dog that is safe around children, but you just learned that can put you in a tricky situation. You have also heard the saying, "It takes a village to raise a child."? If you are going to allow children to pet your dog, yes, you need to be willing to teach the child how. You have done that, with your steps, making the dog sit, explaining she's young, too, etc.

That's what you should do, but you just noticed for a terrible two or younger, (I am guessing since the kid was in diapers and she was on her third, I'd have that part done before two, but who knows?) I will suggest a few more "rules".

1.) Instruct the child only to use an "open palm" when petting. Choose one spot for the child to pet, say the shoulder area, or neck, you know what your dog would appreciate. As with dog training and child training, it is best to set the stage for success. 

2.) Praise the child who follows instructions! Any sign of grabbing or pinching, you were correct to stop the child. The mother was correct to reprimand her child for the act, but maybe fell short with the lesson that pinching/slapping hurts. 

Now, the second time the child misbehaved, and at the point of the child laughing, I will add, I would have dropped to my knees, looked the toddler in the eyes and said, OUCH! That HURT DOGGY! Do YOU like to be pinched or slapped? That is not allowed! (You could even  say, TIME OUT for you. If you get a sad face from the kid then, you're on the right track!)

Empathy is hard to understand for a normal self-centered two year old. It isn't a one time lesson either. And to a child, negative attention is better than no attention, sometimes. That is why rewarding good behavior is so very important! 

3.) You never know if a child has a learning disability, either.

4.) Patience and consistent repetition will be required. The fact the mom didn't see the second offense, and the child got no "discipline" from you, only empowered the little tyke to disregard your "authority". Watching you move around and guard your puppy with your body probably seemed like a funny dance!

I also commend you for your protective instincts with your pup. However, since your dog was well behaved, I would have stopped the child directly and purposely, even blocking the child with my arms and my words, "No touching puppy without asking!"  And like you are with training a pup to learn, I would only allow the contact I described above-- open palm, one spot only, and still I would watch the interaction like a hawk.

Hope this helps. 






 

Serial killers are known to also abuse animals.  Keep a leash on the kid.

I don't allow strangers to touch my dog, especially kids.  I made that a rule almost 50 years ago and have never regretted it.

Nan, are you insane? What a dumb post.