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by kitkat3478 on 05 March 2013 - 08:03
Dawulf- many of these seperate lines only go back 5-6 generations before they seperated.. you will find the same lines in czech,working and showlines not that far back.
Impossible for the genetic structure to have changed unless they have included Shiloh and King Shepherds in there somewhere.
I would be really interested to know the origin and purpose of this study.
I myself am a firm believer in ONE German Shepherd dog, being a dual/multi purpose BREED.
Impossible for the genetic structure to have changed unless they have included Shiloh and King Shepherds in there somewhere.
I would be really interested to know the origin and purpose of this study.
I myself am a firm believer in ONE German Shepherd dog, being a dual/multi purpose BREED.
by Blitzen on 05 March 2013 - 12:03
I"m with you, Kitkat, if there truly has been a change in the DNA, it had to be the result of the introduction of another breed or breeds into the genetic mix. Oops!!!
by darylehret on 05 March 2013 - 14:03
Selective breeding is the continuance of some traits while others are omitted. To say that the resulting branches are NOT genetically different from each other is just idiocy. If they were the same, you would be able to recover absent genetic expressions in a bloodline without recrossing them. Man and monkey aren't all that genetically different, but they ARE different. I don't know of any humans with prehensile tails or opposable thumbs on their feet. No, I haven't read the article, but the premise of it's title doesn't sound incorrect. Workinglines are genetically different from other workinglines, one dog is genetically different from another dog.... but if they can interbreed, they ARE the same species, despite their genetic differences. And keep in mind, the term "breed" is the RECORD of ancestry, not the description of it's genetic composition.
by Blitzen on 05 March 2013 - 14:03
Maybe you should read the article,. Daryl?
by joanro on 05 March 2013 - 15:03
Coming from the the same dogs originally does not technically exclude the possibility of the the lines becoming separate breeds. Look at the Smooth Fox Terrier and the Wire Fox Terrier. Or, the Norwich and Norfolk Terriers, the Red Irish Setter and the Irish Red and White Setter. The differences between the the SL and WL is dramatic. Unfortunately, WL are being selected by some to resemble the SL, without the b/r color.
by darylehret on 05 March 2013 - 15:03
I don't need to read the article to know they're genetically different, and if you want to argue otherwise then prove your case. Squeeze blood from a rock with your showline breeding, if you can.
by Blitzen on 05 March 2013 - 15:03
"The Fox Terrier came in both a smooth coat and a wirehaired coat and were considered the same breed for many years. The Wirehaired Fox Terrier was bred by crossing in the rough coated black and tan terrier, for use in rough country, its coat being less vulnerable to damage than that of the Smooth Fox Terrier."
From the Fox Terries breed standard.
"Developed in East Anglia, England, the Norfolk and Norwich Terriers used to be the same breed with two different ear types; both were referred to as the Norwich Terrier. The English were the first to separate them in 1964. In 1979 the AKC officially deemed them as separate breeds, the Norwich having small perked ears and the Norfolk with dropped ears. Another slight difference is the Norfolks are angular in shape and the Norwich Terriers are more round. The dogs were used as barnyard ratters and to bolt foxes that had gone to ground during a fox hunt. Their small size allowed them to get in and out of fox dens easily. After the foxes were flushed from their dens hunters on horseback would resume the chase with their hounds."
From the Norwich breed standard.
"The Irish Setter was developed from mixing the Irish Terrier, Irish Water Spaniel, English Setter, Pointer and the Gordon Setter. It was originally called the Irish Red Setter in the United States. At one time the Irish Setter was a red and white dog with shorter legs than today's breed. The shorter legs were most likely bred in to help the dogs "set" the game. They would crouch down low near the bird so that the hunter could walk over and toss a net over the prey and the dog. In the 19th century selective breeding produced a dog with a pure chestnut red coat and the white was bred out of the breed."
From the Red Irish Setter breed standard.
From the Fox Terries breed standard.
"Developed in East Anglia, England, the Norfolk and Norwich Terriers used to be the same breed with two different ear types; both were referred to as the Norwich Terrier. The English were the first to separate them in 1964. In 1979 the AKC officially deemed them as separate breeds, the Norwich having small perked ears and the Norfolk with dropped ears. Another slight difference is the Norfolks are angular in shape and the Norwich Terriers are more round. The dogs were used as barnyard ratters and to bolt foxes that had gone to ground during a fox hunt. Their small size allowed them to get in and out of fox dens easily. After the foxes were flushed from their dens hunters on horseback would resume the chase with their hounds."
From the Norwich breed standard.
"The Irish Setter was developed from mixing the Irish Terrier, Irish Water Spaniel, English Setter, Pointer and the Gordon Setter. It was originally called the Irish Red Setter in the United States. At one time the Irish Setter was a red and white dog with shorter legs than today's breed. The shorter legs were most likely bred in to help the dogs "set" the game. They would crouch down low near the bird so that the hunter could walk over and toss a net over the prey and the dog. In the 19th century selective breeding produced a dog with a pure chestnut red coat and the white was bred out of the breed."
From the Red Irish Setter breed standard.
by Blitzen on 05 March 2013 - 15:03
I would never try to prove to anyone on this board that showlines and workinglines are genetically identical.
by joanro on 05 March 2013 - 16:03
Blitzen, if you're point is that the breeds I used as an example were once the same breed, that is exactly what I said....that's why I used them as an example. The wire and smooth used to be be varieties. They could be bred together, and offspring were registrable, until they were labeled separate breeds. Used to get wires and smooths in the same litter, not any more. Just like you don't get a WL dog from a SL litter....essentially two breeds.
by kitkat3478 on 05 March 2013 - 16:03
You do however get longcoats and shortcoats in German Shepherds,
You also have red and blacks in the working lines, and sables in the showlines, and solid blacks in both lines.
The only thing that differentiates the both lines is the purposes and goals of the breeders.
The doubleing up of "specific traits" in a specific breeding, not of different breeds.
You also have red and blacks in the working lines, and sables in the showlines, and solid blacks in both lines.
The only thing that differentiates the both lines is the purposes and goals of the breeders.
The doubleing up of "specific traits" in a specific breeding, not of different breeds.
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