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by kitkat3478 on 06 December 2012 - 11:12
In light of some of the more recent threads, maybe some could see why I have such a problem with that phrase.
If I wanted to gamble with my $1500-$2500, I think I would rather go to Vegas and possibly have a little fun while I am throwing my money away (or maybe not, maybe I would hit the jackpot).
It just seems the more people say "I get what I get" when buying a German Shepherd pup, the easier it makes it for breeders to say, Oh Well, Shit Happens.
Yes, I understand that shit does happen, but as the buyer of a pup, I do not want or expect that to be what my option is when I spend good money, for a healthy dog. I expect to get what I pay for, and if the dice don't roll the way I was hoping, I do expect a re-roll without having to jump through hoops either, or get slammed all over the internet either.
And on the flip side, when selling a pup, I know if I advertise for healthy pups, WITH a guarantee, and again, the roll of the dice don't roll out the way I rolled them, I expect the buyer to be highly disappointed, AND EXPECTS ME TO MAKE GOOD ON WHAT "I", as the breeder/seller said my dogs were.
Just sayin, the more people expect "a crap shoot",the easier it is to sell a bunch of shit and not be accountable for it (and then cry foul, if you are called on it).
If I wanted to gamble with my $1500-$2500, I think I would rather go to Vegas and possibly have a little fun while I am throwing my money away (or maybe not, maybe I would hit the jackpot).
It just seems the more people say "I get what I get" when buying a German Shepherd pup, the easier it makes it for breeders to say, Oh Well, Shit Happens.
Yes, I understand that shit does happen, but as the buyer of a pup, I do not want or expect that to be what my option is when I spend good money, for a healthy dog. I expect to get what I pay for, and if the dice don't roll the way I was hoping, I do expect a re-roll without having to jump through hoops either, or get slammed all over the internet either.
And on the flip side, when selling a pup, I know if I advertise for healthy pups, WITH a guarantee, and again, the roll of the dice don't roll out the way I rolled them, I expect the buyer to be highly disappointed, AND EXPECTS ME TO MAKE GOOD ON WHAT "I", as the breeder/seller said my dogs were.
Just sayin, the more people expect "a crap shoot",the easier it is to sell a bunch of shit and not be accountable for it (and then cry foul, if you are called on it).
by kitkat3478 on 06 December 2012 - 12:12
I have to correct something, I did not mean to say, to breed crap, but rather to treat their buyers "as crap".
by workingdogz on 06 December 2012 - 12:12
kitkat,
In breeding, the genes can 'click' any number of a 100+ ways.
There is no 'sure thing' in any living breathing creature. I would
have to say, if you want 'sure things', then keep your money,
don't spend it, and you will be sure you always have that money
I don't believe any responsible and ethical breeder ever sets out
with the goal to produce an unhealthy or unsound puppy, but this
whole North American guarantee thing has really gotten out of hand
in my opinion. A good breeder starts with healthy breeding dogs,
they seek out the best male to compliment and compensate their
female in both geno and phenotype, make the breeding then wait.
They do their best to produce healthy sound puppies. They cannot
forsee a problem in the future, so really, in my eyes, short of taking
a puppy back if they bred it, I don't see how you can hold them to
be responsible for the puppy for every thing forever. At some point,
a buyer must take responsibility and take a chance. Let me ask you,
if you buy a Ford truck, and 3 years after purchase the wheels
fall off, do you expect Ford to make this good again? It's rather
unrealisitc. Yes, a good breeder will usually step to the plate,
regardless of whether or not a guarantee has been made.
But, really, once the puppy passes a health check with your vet,
it's time for the buyer to accept responsibility for their purchase.
As a buyer you need to seek out the best quality animal you can
buy from proven healthy lines. Life is about chances.
Now, if the breeder offers a guarantee, you better damn sure read and
reread that sucker several times over before signing on the dotted line
or sending any money. Most guarantees are not worth the paper they
are written on. They provide a false sense of security to the buyer.
In breeding, the genes can 'click' any number of a 100+ ways.
There is no 'sure thing' in any living breathing creature. I would
have to say, if you want 'sure things', then keep your money,
don't spend it, and you will be sure you always have that money
I don't believe any responsible and ethical breeder ever sets out
with the goal to produce an unhealthy or unsound puppy, but this
whole North American guarantee thing has really gotten out of hand
in my opinion. A good breeder starts with healthy breeding dogs,
they seek out the best male to compliment and compensate their
female in both geno and phenotype, make the breeding then wait.
They do their best to produce healthy sound puppies. They cannot
forsee a problem in the future, so really, in my eyes, short of taking
a puppy back if they bred it, I don't see how you can hold them to
be responsible for the puppy for every thing forever. At some point,
a buyer must take responsibility and take a chance. Let me ask you,
if you buy a Ford truck, and 3 years after purchase the wheels
fall off, do you expect Ford to make this good again? It's rather
unrealisitc. Yes, a good breeder will usually step to the plate,
regardless of whether or not a guarantee has been made.
But, really, once the puppy passes a health check with your vet,
it's time for the buyer to accept responsibility for their purchase.
As a buyer you need to seek out the best quality animal you can
buy from proven healthy lines. Life is about chances.
Now, if the breeder offers a guarantee, you better damn sure read and
reread that sucker several times over before signing on the dotted line
or sending any money. Most guarantees are not worth the paper they
are written on. They provide a false sense of security to the buyer.
by kitkat3478 on 06 December 2012 - 12:12
Of course I know that even with the "Very Best" intentions and goals, unforseen things can occur, and do occur.
Do I expect the breeder to be accountable for everything that goes wrong, of course not.BUT, if you are guaranteeing hips for two years, and if a hip problem comes up. Replace the dog! Don't say well obviously, this buyer injured the dog, If you sell a pup that gets DM, EPI or Epilepsy or any of the other illnesses that can afflict the breed, give a replacement if the owner wants one. At least make the offer
We all know ,or should know the problems prone to the breed, and as breeders, MOST take every precaution to not produce these things.
I myself feel, IF I produced it, I am accountable.
Same as buyers. You hope and pray you made the right decision when you send a pup out the door with their new owner.
,Is every buyer the right choice?, Unfortunately not.(obviously this is true far too many times for to many dogs, lok in the dog pound and you can see how many breeders also made the wrong choice)
All I am trying to say is, too many people acceting of "it is what it is",with NO accountability.
Do I expect the breeder to be accountable for everything that goes wrong, of course not.BUT, if you are guaranteeing hips for two years, and if a hip problem comes up. Replace the dog! Don't say well obviously, this buyer injured the dog, If you sell a pup that gets DM, EPI or Epilepsy or any of the other illnesses that can afflict the breed, give a replacement if the owner wants one. At least make the offer
We all know ,or should know the problems prone to the breed, and as breeders, MOST take every precaution to not produce these things.
I myself feel, IF I produced it, I am accountable.
Same as buyers. You hope and pray you made the right decision when you send a pup out the door with their new owner.
,Is every buyer the right choice?, Unfortunately not.(obviously this is true far too many times for to many dogs, lok in the dog pound and you can see how many breeders also made the wrong choice)
All I am trying to say is, too many people acceting of "it is what it is",with NO accountability.
by Gustav on 06 December 2012 - 12:12
My mother always told me " I was old enough to not get what I want or expect" ....she drummed that into my head....I am so thankful today!
by Rik on 06 December 2012 - 13:12
A lot of "guarantees" offer very little real protection for the buyer. They are written by the seller, often with leagal advice and give an out in almost any circumstance one can imagine.
It will always come down to the integrity and character of the seller.
It will always come down to the integrity and character of the seller.
by VKGSDs on 06 December 2012 - 13:12
Personally I do not think buying puppies is a crapshoot. I do my research (and most of this is focused on the DOGS themselves, not just finding a breeder that is popular and assuming they know what they are breeding) and so far have not been disappointing but sometimes I spend 2+ years deciding on what dog to get next.
by workingdogz on 06 December 2012 - 13:12
kitkat
Oh, I agree with you that if indeed a breeder offers a guarantee,
they should stand behind what they put in writing! Thats where it
gets kind of tricky though, you need to read and reread and reread
these guarantees and contracts several times to see the fine print
Rik is so dead on right in his comments too
Oh, I agree with you that if indeed a breeder offers a guarantee,
they should stand behind what they put in writing! Thats where it
gets kind of tricky though, you need to read and reread and reread
these guarantees and contracts several times to see the fine print
Rik is so dead on right in his comments too
by SitasMom on 06 December 2012 - 14:12
My contract has fair guarantees, either replace the pup or keep it and get half price on the next (with proof of spay/neuter). Hip/elbow must be sent to OFA, any other issue must be confirmed by two vets. If after a week of bringing a puppy home, if the pup's personality is an issue (too much energy), I will switch with another. If a family member is allergic, I refund. The contract also has a give it back if you cannot take care of it anymore, no matter what the age. Even if it was not in writing, I would do this.
Its not what's in writing, but the morals of the breeder that matters. I want my puppies to grow into dogs and have long happy lives, and do everything I can to make this happen. As a puppy buyer, one must first study the breeder, search for on line complaints, search court records and get a good "gut feel". They must read the guarantee and make sure to sign it. This is the same as buying a washing machine, car, or anything else.
Its not what's in writing, but the morals of the breeder that matters. I want my puppies to grow into dogs and have long happy lives, and do everything I can to make this happen. As a puppy buyer, one must first study the breeder, search for on line complaints, search court records and get a good "gut feel". They must read the guarantee and make sure to sign it. This is the same as buying a washing machine, car, or anything else.
by workingdogz on 06 December 2012 - 14:12
Sitasmom
I'm curious, what do you mean 'give back'. Do you expect
a buyer to simply hand a dog back to you if they cannot keep
it? at no charge? Did you give them them pup?
This is a primary reason we purchase no string attached.
Another question, why do you only give half off the purchase of
another pup in the event the current one has bad joints etc if the
buyer chooses to keep the afflicted pup? Why would you want them
to go to more expense to get the pup back to you? Wouldn't simple
proof of spay/neuter and return of papers assure you of the inability
of the dog to be bred etc? This is a perfect example of what I mean
about contract/guarantee loopholes. Not directed solely at you, you
just happened to post your terms.
I'm curious, what do you mean 'give back'. Do you expect
a buyer to simply hand a dog back to you if they cannot keep
it? at no charge? Did you give them them pup?
This is a primary reason we purchase no string attached.
Another question, why do you only give half off the purchase of
another pup in the event the current one has bad joints etc if the
buyer chooses to keep the afflicted pup? Why would you want them
to go to more expense to get the pup back to you? Wouldn't simple
proof of spay/neuter and return of papers assure you of the inability
of the dog to be bred etc? This is a perfect example of what I mean
about contract/guarantee loopholes. Not directed solely at you, you
just happened to post your terms.
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