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by vonissk on 25 November 2012 - 20:11
I have noticed here lately with all the who did what to who posts, the subject of inbreeding and tight linebreeding comes up and it is blamed on everything. I can tell by many of the comments made, they have not one iota of a clue. It's just awful and on and on. Inbreeding and tightlinebreeding are no more than tools that are used by experienced breeders who KNOW the dogs and are developing a line. Had Max himself not done it there would be no GSD as we know it today. Yes there are dogs that it should not be done with--like a pedigree from Paw Village that was put up on another post--those are people doing it that cause they had no idea what they were doing and didn't want to spend money on an outside stud. As Blitzen stated unless 2 littermates are identical twins, their genetic makeup is different. As I have said before some people shouldn't be able to use a hammer, or drive a car but they are only tools. and in the end the individual person should be held accountable.
The second thing is responsibility. I've noticed another thing, when something goes a little wrong, automatically it is all the breeder's fault. Which in many cases it might be--but where does your respeonsibility as an owner begin and end? You bought the dog, your contract guarantees the dog to OFA--which is does be it a Fair or Excellent--now your contract with that breeder is DONE. But some seem to think when they buy that pup the breeder has to remain responsible for the dog's lifetime. Anything that goes wrong is automatically their fault. Never any mention of the buyer owning the dog for 5 years already and maybe how the dog was raised or housed or fed. A lot of breeders say when you buy from me you become a member of my extended family. That's all well and fine BUT there are limits to everything. That doesn't mean you were adopted by them and they owe you for the rest of the dog's life. When I buy a dog, I buy the dog, not the breeder, not their kids...........the last dog I bought the breeder and I had a verbal agreement about H/E. But had the dog not passed OFA I wouldn't have run back to him because I know puppies are a crapshoot no matter how many generations are clear h/e and titled. That doesn't mean MY particular puppy will turn out that way.
I went ahead and put both topics on one page because things seem to get off kilter anyway........just my 2 cents for a beautiful Sunday.
The second thing is responsibility. I've noticed another thing, when something goes a little wrong, automatically it is all the breeder's fault. Which in many cases it might be--but where does your respeonsibility as an owner begin and end? You bought the dog, your contract guarantees the dog to OFA--which is does be it a Fair or Excellent--now your contract with that breeder is DONE. But some seem to think when they buy that pup the breeder has to remain responsible for the dog's lifetime. Anything that goes wrong is automatically their fault. Never any mention of the buyer owning the dog for 5 years already and maybe how the dog was raised or housed or fed. A lot of breeders say when you buy from me you become a member of my extended family. That's all well and fine BUT there are limits to everything. That doesn't mean you were adopted by them and they owe you for the rest of the dog's life. When I buy a dog, I buy the dog, not the breeder, not their kids...........the last dog I bought the breeder and I had a verbal agreement about H/E. But had the dog not passed OFA I wouldn't have run back to him because I know puppies are a crapshoot no matter how many generations are clear h/e and titled. That doesn't mean MY particular puppy will turn out that way.
I went ahead and put both topics on one page because things seem to get off kilter anyway........just my 2 cents for a beautiful Sunday.
by J Basler on 25 November 2012 - 21:11
Well in a nutshell as they say it.
by Blitzen on 25 November 2012 - 21:11
http://www.dogchannel.com/dog-magazines/dogworld/planned-breeding/planned-breeding.aspx
Some interesting comments on linebreeding and inbreeding by a well-known GSD breeder.
by Jenni78 on 25 November 2012 - 22:11
Amen, Vonissk. Especially your 2nd rant. That bothers me to no end, the lack of responsibility people take for how THEIR puppy turns out. As if the poor thing is a toaster oven to be replaced via a Walmart extended replacement plan. Blech.
by vonissk on 25 November 2012 - 23:11
Great link Blitzen--I happen to have an original copy of the book and it is one of my treasures. I reccomend to anyone interested in developing a line. I noticed that Pat Trotter was quoted in the article. Her book, I believe it is called Born to Win Breed to Succeed is another outstanding read on genetics and developing lines. Both authors make the whole thing come alive and written in plain English for anyone to understand.
Absolutely Jenn. If I was into lifetime replacements maybe I would sell toasters or pizza ovens or something...but not dogs..............I've noticed there's been a lot of that lately. I'll do anything I can to help a person with their puppy or their dog but I refuse to adopt them.
You gotta do your homework--if you feel you are too green there are plenty of people to help you--I have a service dog prospect on my list--I told her when we originally talked, if something goes south and I don't have a puppy for you please let me help you find one--and she appreciated that.
Now a brag about an ideal customer. I have had an older female for rehoming basically cause one of my girls hates her--the last time it cost almost 500 to save her and not only that she deserves a forever home. Several people have contacted me but none I liked. I have found the perfect home and she leaves next Thursday. Because I had her spayed at a young age I never had her hips even looked at--I always wanted to but it seems there was never enough money left over. This man is going to take her and get her OFA's done, just because he wants to. Not because he thinks there-s anything wrong--he knows her pedigree. That thrills me to no end. Now I will know--this man has plenty of money and he could have had any dog he wanted. But he wanted one that was from a small time person who he felt would be more honest. We all need customers like this. Thank you Troy.....................
Absolutely Jenn. If I was into lifetime replacements maybe I would sell toasters or pizza ovens or something...but not dogs..............I've noticed there's been a lot of that lately. I'll do anything I can to help a person with their puppy or their dog but I refuse to adopt them.
You gotta do your homework--if you feel you are too green there are plenty of people to help you--I have a service dog prospect on my list--I told her when we originally talked, if something goes south and I don't have a puppy for you please let me help you find one--and she appreciated that.
Now a brag about an ideal customer. I have had an older female for rehoming basically cause one of my girls hates her--the last time it cost almost 500 to save her and not only that she deserves a forever home. Several people have contacted me but none I liked. I have found the perfect home and she leaves next Thursday. Because I had her spayed at a young age I never had her hips even looked at--I always wanted to but it seems there was never enough money left over. This man is going to take her and get her OFA's done, just because he wants to. Not because he thinks there-s anything wrong--he knows her pedigree. That thrills me to no end. Now I will know--this man has plenty of money and he could have had any dog he wanted. But he wanted one that was from a small time person who he felt would be more honest. We all need customers like this. Thank you Troy.....................
by Gustav on 25 November 2012 - 23:11
There is nothing wrong with proper inbreeding or linebreeding....nothing whatsoever!....if after you set the type you dont continue to breed to the same cousins and uncles for the next 6 generations creating a backmass. I really think that is the understanding that knowledgable breeders have. If in 7 generations you have dog X 40 times??????/ Well, i do not think that is productive....but to set type and then open up genepool and breed on phenotype as opposed to genotype is a fine practice. Unfortunately, when many pedigrees are examined today in certain lines....the backmassing is there; and it often corellates with a higher incidence of health and mental health issues.
by Blitzen on 26 November 2012 - 13:11
For some reason many in the this breed freak out over linebreeding and inbreeding. Maybe it's a German thing?
by beetree on 26 November 2012 - 14:11
I think I am an Ideal buyer. Too bad I'm not buying right now.
by vonissk on 26 November 2012 - 16:11
Good Morning Guys, yep Blitzen I think you're right==I have heard that before. But then I also think people equate dog breeding with humans. Like oh that's incest--I guarantee you people it's not-- Bee you probably would be an ideal customer--I know I am. The only time I "bug" the breeder is by sending pics and bragging about accomplishments. I happen to be the type that likes that kind of stuff. But I'm like you Bee I'm not buying now--just way too broke this year. My dogs keep me broke.........................
Gustav I wanted to thank you for your post. Sometimes I get to going and leave out stuff but I don't mean to, just somewhere else at the time.
Gustav I wanted to thank you for your post. Sometimes I get to going and leave out stuff but I don't mean to, just somewhere else at the time.
by vk4gsd on 26 November 2012 - 22:11
i don't think the when it goes wrong its the other guys fault attitude is just a dog thing. it fits in with a wider social trend where of evryone wants absolute freedom and no responsibility and then litigate the pants off anyone and everyone that you feel has infringed on yr rights to be a big baby yr whole life.
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