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by vonissk on 25 November 2012 - 22:11
Very interesting reading--thanks for posting that Reggie.
by Blitzen on 25 November 2012 - 23:11
Shandra, briefly, genes are inherited in pairs, one half of each pair coming from each parent. It's a random pairing which makes it highly unlikely that siblings will ever end up with the same gene pool unless they are identical twins. This is why you could breed a female to one dog and later breed her to that dog's brother and not get much similarity in the progeny.The same is true in humans. only identical twins share the exact same gene pool.
by Shandra on 25 November 2012 - 23:11
Thanks for the link, it is very informative. It also explains something else.... the reason I am NOT a breeder! lol It takes more than just throwing to dogs together willnilly
by GSDGenetics on 26 November 2012 - 05:11
If you happen to know the AKC studbook date for Duncan's Gretta and if that studbook date is before August 2004, the year and month when AKC stopped making their studbook available to subscribers, I can look her up in my AKC studbooks for you. Also, who is the white dog in the pedigree?
Don't worry about the Panda gene. To get a Panda GSD one of the parents must also be a Panda GSD.
The Panda gene is a dominant gene caused by a spontaneous mutation. You cannot get a Panda marked dog unless it has a Panda parent. The mutation only affects color and pigment in area of the body with the white markings.
The dominant Panda gene is totally different from the common recessive white spotting gene that is responsible for white chest blazes, toes, and white tail tips frequently seen in all bloodlines of GSDs. The dominant Panda gene is also totally different from the recessive Irish white spotting gene. The recessive Irish white spotting gene is the gene responsible for the white markings in breeds such as collies and shelties, but is rarely seen in the GSD.
The gene for the all white dog with black pigment is a recessive that has been present in the breed since the breed was created, Horand v Grafrath had at least one white long coated grandparent. The white GSD was first discriminated against largely because of SV politics and erroneous believing the typical white coated black pigmented GSD was some kind of albino, which it is not. After the SV decided the white GSD should not be admitted to the Zuchtbuch, the GSDCA followed suit and made the white coat color a disqualifying fault in the AKC standard. If a colored dog has one white PARENT, then that colored dog will carry the white recessive and pass it on to 50 percent of its progeny.If a dog has a white GRANDPARENT, the odds of that dog carrying the white gene is at most 50-50. The more colored dogs there are between the white in a pedigree and the further back the white appears in the pedigree, the more likely it is that the dog in question does NOT carry white.
Although a breeder might get lucky with one litter, health problems, etc are something that happens to every breeder who breeds long enough, even to the most knowledgeable reputable breeders who rigorously screen, certify, and do everything possible to minimize the chances of having pups born with health problems. Even with health problems known to definitely have a genetic componenet, science still knows very little about what part environmental factors, infections, etc, both before and after birth, play in determining what health problems and what severity of health problems may or may not manifest themselves in any particular individual dog. OFA certifications and other genetic health screening and certifications can definitely reduce the odds of certain problems and severity of those problems appearing in progeny of certified parents and bloodlines but is no guarantee of health and soundness in progeny. Even two OFA excellent parents out of generations of OFA certified ancestors may produce progeny with severe hip dysplasia. Ive known of a few OFA excellent GSDs who were retired from breeding because they simply weren't good hip producers.
FYI early graying on the muzzle does nothing to indicate longevity. I had a male who, like some of his Hoheneichen ancestors, was quite young when his muzzle started graying. Almost his entire face was grayed when he died at a ripe old age of 14. I know of quite a few famous dogs from other lines who started graying young, and lived to be 13 and older.
Pedigree database pedigrees are limited to the amount of info a person enters when creating a pedigree. I've seen many misspelled and duplicate pedigrees and many titles left out of pedigrees. For example, if you get a pedigree from AKC on a dog who is from Germany or other country and has Canadian, German or other foreign titles, none of those titles will appear on the AKC pedigree. Its not unusual to find misspelled German names on AKC pedigrees either. Unless AKC has changed the way they do pedigrees, breed club titles such as Select, Grand Victor, AOE, ROM do not show at all on offical AKC pedigrees. I personally know of a pedigree where a dogs ancestor shows a SchH3 title, I knew that ancestor personally and the only title he had was a CD. Unfortunately the creator of the pedigree with the fake title in it had made the settings so nobody could edit the pedigree so I was unable to remove the fake SchH3 title.
For accurate OFA info, you should seach for your dog and known ancestors in OFA's databases at www.offa.org
Don't worry about the Panda gene. To get a Panda GSD one of the parents must also be a Panda GSD.
The Panda gene is a dominant gene caused by a spontaneous mutation. You cannot get a Panda marked dog unless it has a Panda parent. The mutation only affects color and pigment in area of the body with the white markings.
The dominant Panda gene is totally different from the common recessive white spotting gene that is responsible for white chest blazes, toes, and white tail tips frequently seen in all bloodlines of GSDs. The dominant Panda gene is also totally different from the recessive Irish white spotting gene. The recessive Irish white spotting gene is the gene responsible for the white markings in breeds such as collies and shelties, but is rarely seen in the GSD.
The gene for the all white dog with black pigment is a recessive that has been present in the breed since the breed was created, Horand v Grafrath had at least one white long coated grandparent. The white GSD was first discriminated against largely because of SV politics and erroneous believing the typical white coated black pigmented GSD was some kind of albino, which it is not. After the SV decided the white GSD should not be admitted to the Zuchtbuch, the GSDCA followed suit and made the white coat color a disqualifying fault in the AKC standard. If a colored dog has one white PARENT, then that colored dog will carry the white recessive and pass it on to 50 percent of its progeny.If a dog has a white GRANDPARENT, the odds of that dog carrying the white gene is at most 50-50. The more colored dogs there are between the white in a pedigree and the further back the white appears in the pedigree, the more likely it is that the dog in question does NOT carry white.
Although a breeder might get lucky with one litter, health problems, etc are something that happens to every breeder who breeds long enough, even to the most knowledgeable reputable breeders who rigorously screen, certify, and do everything possible to minimize the chances of having pups born with health problems. Even with health problems known to definitely have a genetic componenet, science still knows very little about what part environmental factors, infections, etc, both before and after birth, play in determining what health problems and what severity of health problems may or may not manifest themselves in any particular individual dog. OFA certifications and other genetic health screening and certifications can definitely reduce the odds of certain problems and severity of those problems appearing in progeny of certified parents and bloodlines but is no guarantee of health and soundness in progeny. Even two OFA excellent parents out of generations of OFA certified ancestors may produce progeny with severe hip dysplasia. Ive known of a few OFA excellent GSDs who were retired from breeding because they simply weren't good hip producers.
FYI early graying on the muzzle does nothing to indicate longevity. I had a male who, like some of his Hoheneichen ancestors, was quite young when his muzzle started graying. Almost his entire face was grayed when he died at a ripe old age of 14. I know of quite a few famous dogs from other lines who started graying young, and lived to be 13 and older.
Pedigree database pedigrees are limited to the amount of info a person enters when creating a pedigree. I've seen many misspelled and duplicate pedigrees and many titles left out of pedigrees. For example, if you get a pedigree from AKC on a dog who is from Germany or other country and has Canadian, German or other foreign titles, none of those titles will appear on the AKC pedigree. Its not unusual to find misspelled German names on AKC pedigrees either. Unless AKC has changed the way they do pedigrees, breed club titles such as Select, Grand Victor, AOE, ROM do not show at all on offical AKC pedigrees. I personally know of a pedigree where a dogs ancestor shows a SchH3 title, I knew that ancestor personally and the only title he had was a CD. Unfortunately the creator of the pedigree with the fake title in it had made the settings so nobody could edit the pedigree so I was unable to remove the fake SchH3 title.
For accurate OFA info, you should seach for your dog and known ancestors in OFA's databases at www.offa.org
by Sunsilver on 26 November 2012 - 13:11
After researching this pedigree, I am starting to wonder if the breeder mistakenly thought you could get Pandas by crossing white GSDs with black! 
Would have been a good way for an unscrupulous BYB like her to make a few extra bucks selling these RARE dogs! 
Would have been a good way for an unscrupulous BYB like her to make a few extra bucks selling these RARE dogs! by GSDGenetics on 07 December 2012 - 06:12
If you breed a solid white GSD to a solid black GSD, the colored puppies in the litter may be agouti/sable, two-tone(black and red, black and tan, black and silver), or solid black. If the black parent carries the white recessive, you may get some white pups in the litter. All the puppies in the litter will carry the recessive for solid black from the black parent.
If the white parent is genetically pure for agouti/sable, the colored pups in the litter will all be agouti/sable
If the white parent is genetically agouti/sable carrying the two-tone gene, the colored pups in the litter will be agouti/sables or two-tones.
If the white parent is genetically a two-tone dog who does NOT carry the black recessive, all colored pups in the litter will be two-tone pups.
If the white parent carries the black recessive gene, you may get some solid black pups in the litter.
If the white parent is genetically a solid black dog, all the colored pups in the litter will be solid blacks.
If both parents carry the blue gene, you may get blues.
If both parents carry the liver gene, you may get livers.
The PANDA gene was a spontaneous dominant mutation. The only way you can get a Panda marked GSD is if one of the parents is a Panda marked GSD.
by GSDGenetics on 07 December 2012 - 06:12
The pedigree at this link referred to in an above post:
http://pawvillage.com/pedigree/pedigree.asp?ID=OL5JMGGNTT
is a good example of a breeding done primarily to produce a specific color, liver.
http://pawvillage.com/pedigree/pedigree.asp?ID=OL5JMGGNTT
is a good example of a breeding done primarily to produce a specific color, liver.
by Rasenhof on 07 December 2012 - 08:12
Please OFA hips and elbows ASAP on your male, and the Female as soon a she turns 2 years of age. Also there is a Genetic test for DM. do either one or both, very worth while. If they both are carriers, not a good combination. I breed AKC show lines, do sheepherding, and obedience. I have pups with OFA hips for 5 generations behind them. Most of the pedigree is Ch and/or working titles. Only a few non entities in the 5 th generation. So check the pedigrees on any dog to see if they are sound. Of course you can get unsound dogs out of sound ones, but 5 generations of OFA? usually no problem. Elbows are more tricky, there are fewer, especially in the past. If your dogs have not OFA or 'a' stamped parents, grandparents, and great grandparents, heaven help you if you breed them. Many pups are sold with no actual health tests done with the parents. Breeders often want to keep costs down and oops a shame about your pup. Too bad. Also trying to "get" a color is not a good idea. Black is recessive. Both sides have to be carriers. A friend of mine bred an awesome sheepherding black female. After her death, she has tried to breed one, no luck, She bought one which has mild hip dysplasia, and is now spayed. This dog is a good sheepherder. My friend bought another black pup. Not good. Traded her in for another pup. Better but is VERY hyper and a 7 mos is quite cowhocked. My friend is not happy. Also there are temperament tests. BH, TC and CGC are good. Get you male tested. The TC is a German Shepherd Club of Americia Test. No training needed. Just basic instincts. The CGC and BH need obedience training. Prove that your male has qualities for breeding despite his first 3 generations of non entities in his pedigree. OFA, H&E, DM test and temperment test. Something to do while waiting for you female to grow up. Then do the same with her. Alice
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