Thoughts on this pedigree please - Page 2

Hutchins,
If I read Blackthorn's post correctly, the Panda color HAS to be present in order to be produced. The pedigree that Blackthorn posted, via database, the Dam has no picture. So we must believe that the Panda came from the Dam's side, not Pike.

The Panda coloration is, as Blackthorn already pointed out, NOT something that was 'carried in the lines'--it was the result of a spontaneous genetic mutation IN THAT INDIVIDUAL PUP.  There's plenty of in-depth info out there on the specifics of the investigation that was done to make this determination, but long story short, none of the dogs in the first Panda's background can be 'responsible' for that coloration, as none of them possessed the mutated gene to pass on to their offspring.  

So it's pointless to worry that a breeder is going to produce Pandas if doing tight linebreeding on Pike, or Dasty, for that matter.

The liver coloration of the dog the OP is interested in, OTOH, is, IMO one of the best representatives of the truth of tight linebreeding/inbreeding: If you want to see what's REALLY hiding in the genetic deck of cards of a particular dog, inbreed on that dog--but make sure you're prepared for what it produces, both good AND bad.  Clearly, Dasty carries the gene for liver pigmentation and color, and passed one copy of it to paternal half-siblings Axel and Alice, and both of them passed their copy to their offspring Guapa. 

Given that Guapa is a mature dog already, you have the luxury of seeing the finished product of this inbreeding, as far as structure, temperament, soundness, health and work ethic...at this stage of the game, it's unlikely anything in his genetic make-up is undiscovered and will rear its head later to bite you in the butt.  If you like him, and you want him, why not?

certainly not a breeding i would do.  sorry.  nothing against pike or dasty, but there has to be some balance.  i agree with christine & gustav.
pjp

  If the dog is not going to be used for breeding then why do you need coments on pedigree of this dog? 
Hans

 double post

Good question Prager! 

the problem with the gene ''pool'' is;   there are too many life guards. Our breed forefathers dictated for us to use certain pigmentations, and others to stay away from. They had practical reasons for these mandates and maybe some lessons in ''we should never do this again'' experiences .                              Follow the standard! or get another breed.

Prager, as I understood the question, the OP asked what such a pairing would be expected to produce as far as temperament, working ability and such. I surmise that the dog probably isn't located near enough to lou1974 for it to be just a quick car trip to meet the dog--before buying the dog sight-unseen, or undertaking a trip that may even involve travel to another state, the OP knows there are probably others with knowledge of or experience with dogs of similar linebreeding on Dasty, or at least on Pike. If the info others have related in the thread suggests a type of dog the OP doesn't care for, he/she can then better decide if it's worth the trouble of meeting the dog, or buying him 'blind'.

gsdstudent, chill out--it's a pretty good bet that the breeder of this dog wasn't intending to produce a liver dog; prior to seeing this dog and its pedigree, I wonder how many people knew that Dasty carried the liver factor? 

The only way that info is learned is when the 'verboten' colors appear in a litter...should a healthy puppy be killed just because it's an unaccepted color?  I don't see any reason for doing so, if the dog is placed as a pet and is never used for breeding.  And BTW, the reason these colors appear from time to time is because the BREED carries the genetics within the 'pool' by virtue of the fact that some of the founding dogs used to CREATE the breed (it's a man-made breed, after all) WERE those colors. Additionally, so far I know of no one who has been able to identify exactly what the 'practical reasons' for disqualification of blue or white dogs from being used for breeding; with the livers, it was believed that the liver coloration was paired with a 'lethal' gene that caused these pups to be stillborn or die while still juveniles.  That belief was later shown to be erroneous.  It's been claimed that the whites were excluded because they would blend with the flock, and the flock wouldn't respect their authority, but that, too, has been shown to be a fallacy.

Edited to add:  It would be interesting to see if this mating produces any liver pups, since it's a linebreeding on Pike and Forma, Dasty's parents, but with only Forma in the third generation, because instead of an inbreeding on Dasty, this pairing has Dasty's half-sibling Eich in the maternal sire position.  If the liver is coming from Pike, it's less likely that it would appear in puppies in this litter, but if it's Forma who was carrying the genetics for liver, there may well be a liver in the brood. All depends on how the genetic deck shuffles...

This web site works best as a forum. I think it is important to remind everyone and especially beginners there is a standard. One thing the breed forefathers were against was in breeding. Many threads have talked about what is in-breeding and what is line- breeding. Please refer to them. This pedigree  is an example of in-breeding. ''Off pigments are sign other problems are close by. I do believe this is why livers and silvers are descouraged. Thanks for the advice to chill ''hexe'' I will practice this the rest of the day! If my previous responce encouraged the person asking to keep gaining knowledge.,then a service was provided.