WUSV teams: Who are the real trainers? - Page 1

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by Joanna on 01 October 2003 - 17:10

The following list is the names of the teams representing the United States. 1 Gary Hanrahan (USCA) Bastin v. Kokeltal 2 Debbie Zappia (USCA) Escobar v. Adelrik  3 Charly Meszaros (GSDCA-WDA) Torro v.h. Bleekhof 4 Dave Kroyer (GSDCA-WDA) Dax v. Meerhout 5 Wayne Curry (GSDCA-WDA) Rabouke v. Braunschweiger Wappen Kathy Jo Meghan (GSDCA-WDA) Monty v. Soeburcht Thomas Vollrath (USCA) Nykos v. Grysycos We know Bastin v Kobeital was the German BSP champion. Bastin was purchased by an Amarican after he achieved the highest honored award as BSP Sieger in Germany. Now Bastin is representing the United States with a new handler, who didn't train the dog from scratch, but uses this dog on the American team. What is this? One would think a country should enter dogs and handler who actually are handler owned and trained. I have some questions: 1. Are handlers purchasing such dogs to stack the deck in their favor? Recognition? What? 2. How many of the other dogs entered are actually handler trained and titled by the handlers? 3. What are the names of the original trainers who trained these dogs? One would think the original trainers, who competed with these dogs should be acknowledged and recognized for the dog's work. Their names are never mentioned. This is really ashame! The new owners and handlers overshadow the real trainers to get to the podium. This is suppose to be a sport where handler teams show THEIR ability to train, title and exhibit their accomplishments as trainers. 4. Does anyone know the names of these silent and deserving trainers? Who trained.... Escobar Adeirik Torro v h Bleekhof Dax v Meerhout Rabouke v Braunschweiger Wappen Monty v Soeburcht Nykos v Grysycos 5. What is the make-up of the teams from other countries? Are they representing their own country's trainers-handlers and dogs, or do they purchase dogs for competition? I think a tribute to the original trainers who have actually brought dogs from beginning to finishing them at the highest level should be recognized. It would be nice to have a list and more info regarding these outstanding trainers. I realize they sell their dogs and move on to another dog, but those who purchase their dogs never acknowledge them. IMO this is truly ashame!

by M.Carter on 01 October 2003 - 18:10

I found this on the WDA nationals results page; 2nd place cat #: 11 Edward Gutekanst Dog: Sioux von der Berkelau High Owner Trained I'm not sure why he is not on the team since he placed second, Wayne curry was third with a finished import and Dave was listed as 4th.

by phantom on 01 October 2003 - 19:10

" I think a tribute to the original trainers who have actually brought dogs from beginning to finishing them at the highest level should be recognized " I agree. Having said that, I also understand that regardless of how great a HOT handler one may be, without that one dog who has what it takes, s/he will not be able to make it to highest level of competition. I know some of the team members of the WUSV team have trained young green dogs to high level by themselves, namely Debbie and Thomas. However, it is also very difficult to maintain a finished dog at the top, competition after competition. I can say that if Bastin is not in the hands of a top tranier and handler and getting proper works on regular basis, Bastin will not stay at the top. I know I am not capable of handling Bastin as well as Gary. Also, how is this different from someone who brought a top V or VA dog from Germany and compete in the States ? Less of an accomplishment ? Yet, good for the breed anyway ?

by Joanna on 01 October 2003 - 19:10

It's only difficult to keep a highly trained dog up to its peek performance, if you DON'T know how to train. It's an excuse some psedo-trainers use to pump up themselves and cover up their inability to train a dog for top performance fron beginning to finish. Experience in training tells us this excuse doesn't hold water. It's interesting to note: many of these purchased dogs are brought back to the original trainer in Europe to polish their performance. Most people don't even know this is happening, but friends tell us so-and-so is here working with his original trainer. Where is the work ethic in purchasing dogs for SchH competition, if you're using someone else's work ethic? What's even worse, is they don't even acknowledge the original owner/trainer? Most European trainers have a strong sense of honesty and integrity in their sport. They have a love of the sport and pride in THEIR OWN accomplishments in training. In addition, they give credit to those who have helped them. The WUSV competition should be showcasing the original trainer and dog team: it should not be a competiton for those profiling dogs they haven't trained. Perhaps the WUSV needs to change the requirements for entree, so that the WUSV championship is the mecca for trainers.

by Joanna on 01 October 2003 - 20:10

Phantom wrote: "Also, how is this different from someone who brought a top V or VA dog from Germany and compete in the States ? Less of an accomplishment ? Yet, good for the breed anyway ?" The difference in purchasing a top V or VA dog from Germany is that these dogs are used as breeding stock to improve the breed. If someone buys such a dog to be a winner, he may have pride in owning the dog but this is self-limiting to prive of ownership. Top rated placements in shows tells us the structural assests a dog has and how his structure compares to other dogs in the show. The bottom line is: the dog's breeder continues to be recognized for breeding excellence and garners respect for what he's produced. This continues to grow once the dog produces excellence in its progeny. The competition in shows in not the same as in Schutzhund. In Schutzhund competition, the handler is suppose to demonstrate his ability to train his dog. Schutzhund competition were devised so trainers had a sport venue to compete with their dogs. It's exciting to see the results of good trianing done by people who really practice the sport and represent their accomplishments with dogs they have actually trained. For someone to buy a finished SchH champion to parada aroung in SchH competitions is not what competition is really about.

by phantom on 01 October 2003 - 20:10

" Perhaps the WUSV needs to change the requirements for entree, so that the WUSV championship is the mecca for trainers." I have no problem with that. I am all for the HOT. " It's only difficult to keep a highly trained dog up to its peek performance, if you DON'T know how to train." Yes, and one must be a high level trainer in order to be able to do it. I can't honestly say that I can win with Bastin if you gave him to me. Perhaps you can. More power to you.

by phantom on 01 October 2003 - 20:10

" In Schutzhund competition, the handler is suppose to demonstrate his ability to train his dog." I bet to differ. I believe that schutzhund competition is to show case the dog first, training second. Without that dog, I don't care how good a trainer one is, s/he is not going to make it. Try taking one of our AKC dog and train it to an international winner. Perhaps you can Joanna, but most can't. Even for the imported V or VA, one still has to maintain the dog in top form in order to continue to win. Yes, I like the HOT. Yet, I have a great deal of respects for those other top trainers who compete with finished dogs. You will know how difficult it is if you have done it. No dog can go out trial after trial and earns V ratings in all three phases without the proper training. JMO.

by Joanna on 01 October 2003 - 20:10

The point is: the team should consist handler's who have actually trained the dog to high performance. This is suppose to be a sport and competition. Some of these handlers NEVER present a dog they have trained for any national competition, yet earn their living by training dogs for clients or importing dogs for other hopefuls. If they're so accomplished in training, then why do they gravitate to the limelight. Intant recognition! Building a reputation for their dog businesses! More opportunities to import and sell dogs by pointing to their participation in national or international events. This certainly isn't a replacement for actual knowledge and experience in training, but some people don't think beyond the placements to understand what is accually happening. Profiling with another man's accomplishement isn't a respected position in normal societies, but is a way of life for those who have found the easy road to the podium.

by phantom on 01 October 2003 - 20:10

" The point is: the team should consist handler's who have actually trained the dog to high performance." Yes, I agree with you. That would be nice. I have been trying all my life to get that one dog who has what it takes from scratch without success yet. Some of the handlers may NEVER present a dog they have trained from scratch, but to maintain that preformance trial after trial is no easy task either. If I were to give you Bastin or Escobar to-morrow, can you promise that you will bring them to the podium time after time ?

by Jman on 01 October 2003 - 23:10

Phantom, "If I were to give you Bastin or Escobar to-morrow, can you promise that you will bring them to the podium time after time?" I totally agree! It's takes A LOT to keep the training up to the level to podium each time and whichever handler is up there--deserves a lot of credit. If you want to give the original trainor credit, I see no harm in doing so.





 


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