Experiences from breeding showlines with working lines - Page 12

I'm thinking of the protection work done at shows. The first time I saw that at NASS I didn't understand how one dog could receive the same verbal rating from the judge as one that did much better (or worse). Going back for another bite, nibbling on the sleeve, etc.. I do understand it's pass or fail, but aren't there different degrees of passing? I don't speak much German, so don't remember the wording but some "passing dogs" receive a better rating than others, don't they? Pronounced? Adequate?

I agree with whoever said workinglines seem to better fit the phenotype of the foundation dogs judging by their photos. One of my favorite dogs was Graff's Eagle, a beautiful dog with a terrific temperament. I see photos here of workinglines I would consider sound and athletic looking judging by their photos.  Daryl posted a photo to another thread of a really nice looking bitch he bred that is doing some herding. 

RIk said, "When you see what is allowed to pass it will answer your questions." Indeed; and, unfortunately meaningful change in required performance for showlines will not be forthcoming as entrenched interests will ultimately derail these efforts on any meaningful scale.. We have many examples of poorly tempered working lines as well; the difference is they are typically not promoted for breeding en masse. Kevin Nance

I haven't seen more than 20, 25 workinglines up close and personal, but of those dogs the majority were pretty aggressive dogs both inside and outside the ring, probably too much dog for most I know and certainly too much dog for me.

Consistent and unwarranted aggression is NOT proper temperament for a german shepherd.  You definitely need to see more workingline dogs, or find out what it is about you they don't like.  "Too much dog" sounds like the result of extreme breeding.

Here's a copy of the first english published translation of the GSD standard.

http://www.ehretgsd.com/1921GSD.pdf

"It is desireable to try to improve his appearance, but nothing must be done that will in any way detract from his usefulness."

They didn't direct their aggression at me, Daryl. Why would you even say something like that?

Maybe we all need to look at more examples of specific lines before dismissing them?

I see hundreds of workinglines, and quite frankly most of them are lacking in outward aggression. Not saying unwarranted aggression, but far too many of WL today are dogs that will come up to anybody and if you throw a ball for them they will get it for you. Blitzen, I'm sorry, but its rare that I see a WL dog these days with outward/inward aggression......very infrequently.....I actually see MORE SL dogs with outward aggression then WL, but unfortunately it usually is result of thin nerves. I'm not sure I would form an opinion on that limited amount of examples, because I think it might not reflect the norm. Just an opinion...not a criticism.

I  did say I've seen a limited number of workinglines, Gustav. I did not say that my limited experience has qualified me to make a blanket statement that "all workingline dogs are aggressive". I know what I saw and I also know that poorly bred workinglines are not representative of the dogs that are bred by breeders such as yourself. In fact I'll expand that statement to cover showline dogs too. Not all have roach backs and frog rears and freak out at the slightest noise. Generalizations are never a good way to pass judgement on every dog.

 

Blitzen, could you describe how the aggression is expressed and what are the dogs directing it towards?

1. Dogs that lung and bark at the end of the lead at every person who passes near them.

2. Dogs that won't stay on the field in a long down during a simple BH. They would rather break the down and bite the handler of the dog that is competing and then go after the dog. Yeah, it happened to MY dog.

3. Dogs that are no longer welcome in training  classes because they indescriminatley bite the helpers.
 

Thank you for the examples. Those all sound like training issues to me, not aggression issues.