Experiences from breeding showlines with working lines - Page 1

I hear many times that "The German Shepherd dog breed is ONE breed" yet there are the German showlines, the DDR/Czech woriking lines, the West Germany woriking lines, etc". Has anyone any info regarding crosses and breedings between the show and working lines and what were the results. Why there is no attempt by breeders to try to make the lines ONE breed as it was in the past? I hear many people complain about ecxessive type in both lines....SO? Any info regarding cross breeding between the lines?
Thanks!

Yes courageous breeders who did this and still do are there working hard for ONE beautiful versatile balanced GSD to the standard in health, trot, temperament & service, it probably needs several generations to start paying off in producing both show and actual work utility dogs from same litter on consistent basis, it takes guts, knowledge and hard research on lines from patient breeders to do it and achieve consistent results. Hopefully you'll hear from some of these breeders and we all learn from their experiences whether positive or negative results were achieved and why.

Ibrahim  

Not a breeder, but I do own and work a show/working cross who is almost 3 years old.

My male has a strong working pedigree and I feel that carries a lot of what I see in terms of working ability.

We train in a few venues, schutzhund being our main focus. He has done agility and obedience and has his HIC and will continue with lessons in herding as well (tending).

I will start off by saying that I love my boy with my whole heart and I now enjoy working with him a lot.

But..

It was a hard start. He lacked the drive, motivation and willingness to work for me as a younger dog. I did A LOT of drive building, and still do before a working session. He does not have much of a toy/ball/tug drive so finding what worked for him (and me) was hard. He has extremely low food drive as well. He is also very independent and would much rather be tracking than doing obedience.

At almost 3 years old, he is now just getting ready for his BH in the spring. He is not a flashy dog at all, but the fact that he is at a point where he will work with me is a great start.

He has great nerve, totally sound with his environment, I did a lot of socializing as a pup/dog and still do (we live smack dap in the middle of a huge city in Canada) but I don't think it really would of mattered. Nothing phases him. He was a bit reactive as a pup but I have come to learn that it was a training issue (me allowing him to get away with things) as I have worked with many people in and out of the schH world regarding the issue (which was not really an issue to begin with.. lol).

He has great stamina, okay structure (weak pastures, cow hocked and easty-westy) but his temperament is spot on. Great with other dogs, people and especially kids.

He has medium to high thresholds and is quick to jump from prey to defense, but settles within milaseconds if the threat is gone/netural. He is very much a thinker.

I now have a young female (1/2 Czech, 1/4 DDR, 1/4 WG) who is what I would consider an amazing working dog. She is still young but excelling in schH s far. Rock soild dog and an amazing worker.

I am all for breeding with a goal in mind and using the different lines, but I would like to see breeders really put thought into what is being produced and how to accomplish that. My male is great, but for me personally, I perfer a little more... I like my working lines.

My foundation bitch was a working x show cross.  Here is her pedigree.  http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=120782  you can also see all of her titles (including SchH3 IPO3 SG show rating Kkl2).  Her mother was from old German show lines and her father was from mostly Working lines.  She also had another sister who was titled to a SchH1 and two brothers who were working police K9's.  

I took her and bred her to a working line males.... she produced police dogs, SchH dogs, therapy dogs, various performance dogs and great pets.  I kept a puppy (making her 1/4 show 3/4 working lines)  http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=124865  She also titled to SchH3 as well.

I bred that female to working line males... she also produced police dogs, SchH dogs, SAR dogs, therapy dogs, various performance dogs and great pets.  I kept a puppy from one of the litters... the father of the litter was technically 3/4 working lines 1/4 show lines - so that makes my Drama about 1/4 show and 3/4 working lines also.  http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=492183  She is SG show rated, has her SchH1 and AD and is Kkl1.  I hope to finish her SchH2/3 later this year after she is done with puppies.

While my preference lies with working lines, I have had very good results and really love what these lines have produced.  I think that there is some real value in mixing the two lines if it is done correctly!  You cannot take a show line dog who has no working ability and breed it to an ugly working line dog hoping for the best of both worlds.  You need to start with a show line dog who can work and a working line dog who is correct in structure.  

All of the above dogs have had excellent drives, high biddability/desire to work, good work ethic, good working structure, etc... 

I have seen some other very nice working x show crosses over the years... Some people are dead against combining the lines.. while others have had good results doing it.  Some big kennels in Germany also make the crosses sometimes.  

Valerie

I have a show/working cross. She's great. Good drive, even temperment, still can live in the house and be lazy. Small and petite like working, black and red like most show. Gaits beautifully, full bites.

The problem is that since the Martin Brothers (one of them headed up the SV) the show lines have weakened to being all about looks.  NOT all show lines are this way.. but it is a problem.  Raiser has not helped it either. 

Before the Martin Bros. there were show lines and working lines but they were not so far apart as they are today.  Fact is, from its founding days, there have been show lines and working lines.  The difference back then was when it came to doing work, the difference was not so great. 

Today the difference is marked.  Dogs like Zambo (2011 World Universal Seiger), Griff and a few others buck the mold.. but for the most part, the difference in endurance and fight drive (combat drive) from working lines is HUGE.  The issue with the working lines is breeding for prey drive more than combat drive and so drives are out of balance. 

When you breed two animals of the same species that are very very different, the first generation tends to show a proclivity toward one or the other parent.  So, in your show line/working line cross you may end up with a phenotype that LOOKS better but lacks work ethic OR a type that looks like a working dog that won't work.. or dogs that will work.  You should NEVER have to BUILD DRIVE.  It should be (like the commercial says) "in there" from the get go. 

So.. from the F1 generation of dog, you need to go back and line breed to build either conformation or work ethic.  If you have a wonderful looking dog that has little work ethic in the F1 then you back cross (line breed) to the working lines to try to produce a nicer conformation dog with the endurance and work ethic.  If you F1 has great work ethic but looks like a working dog.. you may want to back cross on show lines. 

I have thought about this a LOT and the thing you need is time.  You need to be able to take that first generation dog and back cross it on working lines.. and honestly.. it will take a LOT of time (generations) to build a dog that has both the SL conformation and WL stamina and drives.. and have it be there consistantly. 

Can it be done?  sure.  It just takes sticking to it and making sure all the dogs that do NOT fit the entire mold along the way are placed in great homes. 

After all, Doberman created his breed in his lifetime. 

Sounds like you're taking two different breeds to create a new one. Doberman didn't use totally divergent types to create his breed, so it didn't take as long as it will take to create your proposed breed.

I have had German Shepherd Dogs in Germany since 1972 - there is no such thing as "Old German showlines"! Before the 1980's there was a stronger unity in judging Schutzhund dogs and the dog was bred and sold as working dog, at least in Germany.
With the opening of the Berlin Wall in 1989 Chech and DDR lines were available for the Western world and influenced mainly breeders that were looking for a harder dog, mainly because most of the Chech and DDR dogs originated in police and border patrol.
Some of these dogs though didn't have the versatility that the original GSD should have portrait, as their hardness was good for police work, but not suitable for family protection.
Oh, by the way, that was before the term "fur baby" .
Unfortunately "pretty" dogs with darker red colours (see discussions on GSD genetics on the pedigree database board) and bigger heads mostly weren't as workable anymore.
Now, we can't even use the word "Schutzhund" anymore, apparently the dog is not allowed be called protection dog anymore, and trial rules have watered down the challenge of this workability test.
Obviously I'm a working dog person. If my dog has strong nerves, good grip, is of medium size, medium weight, is healthy, I really don't care about the coat colour.
And...if I go back to the "really old German lines", sable is just perfect for me.
Why would I want to compromise?

I said "old German show lines" meaning that the dog was linebred on Canto/Quanto but did not carry the lines/dogs that you see today.  She did not carry Uran/Quando/Palme or any of the "newer dogs" that show up so many times in today's show line pedigrees.  

Thank you ALL for your inputs. I hear all the time the show lines lack drive and working lines lack conformation. And i have wondered why these attempts do not happen more often.....Or do you think that the differentiation of the lines serves better our world today as show lines are used mostly for pets and shows and working lines almost 100% for work?