Experiences from breeding showlines with working lines - Page 10

Ibrahim... it is a matter of politics and preferances of individuallikes & dislikes. "IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN". The breeds father country and organization don't want it to happen and I truly belive many of the "great breeders" on both sides of the fence don't want it happen because if it did they wouldn't be able to charge such high prices for their puppies ibrahim. One group bashing the other is also a marketing thing. From the working standpoint if every gsd out their was psd/high level competition material no one would need to go to these (specialized kennels) to purchase a puppies. Ie... no more high prices as the dogs down the road are as good as the dogs cross country or across the pond. Kurt

Excellent explanations joanro, and so true about specialization, Kurt.  People looking for the "hardest dog", the "darkest sable", etc. are all forms of selection pressures that breeder's can succumb to.  There could potentially be some breeders producing "for marketability" or some for their "personal preference", but if it weren't for one or the other or both, there'd be no reason for anyone to breed, I'd imagine.

Show and work are not "only" names, they are an accumulation of selection pressures over the span of generations.  Max would not have intended to select from dogs that had no valuable contribution to his intended results.  No founding producer that he utilized to my awareness had a roached back or slunken hips, and he was even moreso particular about a dog's temperament and character.

These characteristics that we have come to know as showline type were developed progressively through generations and then became fixed within their genepool.  Not from an outside source, but from mutation and selection.  Max didn't throw in something off the wall of his plans like a saluki for the heck of it, he selected from a variety of dogs that had more in common with each other than our split breed does today, from a looser-kept shepherd dog "type" which was present for centuries before our breed ever had a namesake.

It is not possible to create a single genetic profile capable of doing the variety of important and disparate tasks assigned to gsd's.  It is naive to think that one could create a dog that could successfully perform on the Schutzhund field AND being a disciplined, steady guide dog for the blind, much less a dog who tends sheep, or one who competes actively in AKC obedience and/or agility and needs uber-sociality.  

I don't see the need for show conformation (except the structural qualities that make a dog healthy and physically capable until he is 10 years old or more), although I don't object to it per se, but I surely don't see the need to compress the gene pool so that the ONLY thing the breed can do is Schutzhund, for example.  Why?  The breed genetic profile is broad enough to do many important jobs, but only if dogs continue to be bred in varieties, as they are.

When people worry that their breeds have split into show and work, I think they are right to worry that the power of the showlines people will dilute the quality of the breed.  But in the case of our breed, we have many WORKING varieties, and those should be cherished and maintained IMO.

Daryl, your on the mark again. I see more and more breeders of work dogs breeding for and touting " deep red sable" , or " black sable" or what ever other shade of sable is the color of the week. The temperament is often overlooked or ignored in preference for shades of color. And "huge heads" , never mind that short legs usually accompany huge heads. The GSD is supposed to be a dog with NO extremes, of anything including drives. When people call and specify what shade color they want, I tell them I don't breed for color, but perhaps the pup that would fit them might also be the color they like. If color is more important to them than the whole dog, I suggest they look elsewhere. It is ultimately up to the breeders to maintain the integrity of the breed instead of just producing what is the current fad. Fads are dynamic and unpredictable, therefore detrimental to any dog breed.

Good post MVF.

MVF, I wholeheartedly agree. We have a defined standard as a baseline. But, from within that pool it is then encumbent upon the prospective owner to accomplish due diligence to ensure the selection meets their needs. Caveat emptor, but with the right contacts, access, and ability to accurately evaluate, lines exist that can meet almost any individual preferences. Kevin Nance

Joanro and Kevin - great.  I agree in turn with your annoyance with the "color" enthusiasts (Joanro) and with the caveat (Kevin).

As to the caveat: ultimately, the genetics of breeding is a complex game of chance with 1000-sided dice.  If people tell you they know precisely what they are going to get, they are misinformed themselves or misinforming their puppy buyers.  

Ultimately, however, if you want a dog who can do something that none of his parents or grandparents could do, you are playing a long shot.  Long-winded discussions of the genius of the breeding plan aimed at bringing to the surface talents that have not been in evidence in generations are just marketing.  Puppy buyers are also often inclined to want something they can't afford, so they engage in wishful thinking with the breeder.

If both parents and all four grandparents did it well enough for you, you are taking a good bet.  If everyone just bought a dog because they'd be happy to have any dog in the pedigree going back a few generations, we'd all be better off IMO.  As a good pedigree is going to be subject to regression to the mean -- the average pup will not be as good as the average of two very good parents -- this is the least we can do.

In my case, I do care about scores, so I don't want a dog whose ancestors loafed through their titles in a red glow.  But as Kevin says, caveat emptor.

VomEisenhaus, I was planning to go but came down with a bad cold and sore throat, so didn't make it. Some of the people I train with were entered, so I hated to miss it. Did your see that little powerhouse GSL female  trialing for her IPO2? I just love that dog and her handler is a wonderful lady. There were 2 really outstanding WL's at our show too, one HOT by an older gentleman, who was just busting at the seams when his dog qualified for his IPO2 (I think). Another great WL was  handled by a young  woman. He was HIT at our show with a near perfect score. My dog was the only AKC CH at the trial but we had fun .

Steve Miller was at our trial at Wesley Chapel, he was showing a showline he trained. I didn't get a chance to talk to him but he was sitting next to me talking to one of the exhibitors and I don't think he will be combining showlines and workinglines again any time soon.

Some breeders in this area are doing a nice job with ASL x GSL's and with pure GSL's . Don't know of any bringing in workinglines yet although we do have some nice ones here.

Back to the topic, genetically I think it is quite possible to return to the "original" GSD, but it wouldn't be quick or easy and it would take a coalition of breeders with the same goal steadfastly supporting selective breeding. I suspect the "original GSD" may not be as popular today as we think .
 

 

Moving forward, not backward is the only possibility.

Blitzen.... I was there for the whole ob/protection. The female showline you speak of was she owned. And or handled by a german woman?