Do I really need to "rough him up"? - Page 1

Background: Kopper is an intact, 1-year year old, 3/4 DDR, 1/4 WGWL male pup (Sando/Sven/Branko Saltzalblick if it matters). We've been in classes continuously since he was 10 weeks old. First puppy class, then intermediate obedience, then three different agility classes.


 There's another dog in his class that he hates, and that hates him right back. All the other dogs get along with him and he gets along with them. At our last class with this dog, Kopper would not settle down and focus on what we were doing; all he cared about was making the evil eye at the other dog, trying to get to the other dog-- and the other dog was returning the favor. The other dog's owner and I were able to keep our dogs' focus with treats, eye contact, and working obedience between our turns for the most part, but if they got too close to each other they'd try to get at each other. Finally he slipped around me and darted towards the other dog. I waited for him to hit the end of his leash and tugged hard when he got there, turning him in a 180 and making him yelp. Then I pushed him backwards about 20 feet with my knees in his chest, making hard eye contact and letting him know I was *not* happy. 

He was perfect for the rest of the class. Ran his courses perfectly, did as he was told. . . the perfect student. Honestly, his attitude and behavior didn't seem all that subdued or upset, he bounced back from the correction and did his agility runs with good attitude, he just didn't try any more funny business.


Then today we did an "Agility Fun" special session. There were 8 or 9 dogs there and he was really overstimulated. High pitched barking, lunging at the leash, not focusing or paying attention, and when I'd let go of his leash for him to run through the tunnel, he'd go sprinting off to visit with another dog. Again, I tried to keep his focus with training, obedience work, heeling, treats, etc. Again, it only *kind of* worked. Then when he was focusing on trying to engage another dog, I popped his leash and meant to knee him with a smallish amount of pressure in the side, but he turned around at the same time and I kneed him harder than I meant to. He yelped and looked at me like I'd just stomped on his goldfish, but again he was *perfect* for the rest of the day. Not subdued, not sad or withdrawn, just focused and willing to work.


I know you're not supposed to put too much pressure on these young, immature DDR dogs. And I really really don't like having to "rough him up" but he seems to respond to it. I'd really like some thoughts from more experienced people on this.  

P.S. Our instructor doesn't like prongs for agility because they have a tendency to "correct" the dog when he goes over obstacles.  

Every dog is different in the amount of correction both needed and that he will tolerate before it really affects his confidence.  Obviously, a correction of BOTH dogs is needed when treats, verbal correction or leash popping is not working and the result of disobedience would be an ugly fight.  I would not knee him though.  When you say no also ask for what you DO WANT..ie, "look" or whatever command you give to tell your dog to focus on you.  I hope you have one of those already.  If there is any attempt at contact or the "evil eye", not only wouldI ask for focus, and correct if not given, not only would I use my body to express dominance, I would make the dog platz..lie down.  NOT submit by rolling in that kind of setting, just sit and then lie down.  That alone is submissive.  They can't initiate a fight if they are lying down.  The wrong kind of leash popping, quick jerks, would actually increase his aggression, as I am sure you know, but I would use a pinch if I thought I needed it.   HOWEVER, even your agitation or stress or unconscious tendency to tighten up on his leash in anticipation of a problem will increase his aggression.  You have to be careful not to do that and remain calm and be careful your corrections are not building drive and making it worse.   

Make sure he knows to pay attention outside a distraction by focus exercises that you do daily, then add distractions (I am only talking a few minutes at a time).  Eventually, I would do some obedience with that other dogs owner having his dog lie down or sitting on leash around the other dog, start out farther away and eventually move closer.  IF the other dog's owner cannot keep his dog in a sit or down, then HE has his own problems he needs to work out.

      Are you training obstacles with a leash attached to the dogs collar?  If so which obstacles?

Most of them, right now.  Jumps, A-frame, tunnel. . . pretty much everything except weaves because with weaves the leash tends to wrap around the poles and cause havoc.  We were doing the obstacles with no leash in other classes, but with these two dogs, when they're done running they occasionally dash over to the other dog when they finish. . .  so the leashes went back on as a safety measure.  

 Hunger, thanks for your insight.  I'm going to read it a few more times and digest everything.  I definitely do make him platz, sit, focus, platz, focus, sit, etc.  

I difinitely do need to work him under more distractions when we're not in class.  I work him all over the neighborhood, but we're out in the country and it's quiet.  I should probably take him to town more often.  

         Sounds likely both trainers need more groundwork in obedience training.  You have to make yourselves more fun to play with or be around.  Tug with dogs, walk around while not using equipment, anything to divert attention from other dogs.
         Now leashes should never be attached to collars while working. The drag will teach your dog to run slower plus there is a chance or snagging an obstacle and pulling your dog to the ground. Agility groundwork must be done right from the outset or you will be chasing 
 these small mistakes for years.  Perhaps consider seperating dogs into different training time slots.             

What about a tab leash?  

I think they're going to be separated after this set of classes is over.

         My opinion would be no, simply swinging back and forth on dogs neck  will be a large distraction.  How does your trainer teach weave
 poles?

Emoore,
That is not roughing up a dog.
Jerking on the leash is not a correction and sends the wrong message.
A correction should leave an impression that cannot be taken for anything else.
I don't like prongs either and are rarely really necessary.
Using the knee is also something I disagree with.
One distraction is no different from another, be it a dog , traffic, crowds, whatever.
Consistent firm handling and practice until the distraction is ignored.
A workout before training might help with an over excited dog.
You can't do anything about someone else's dog except ask them to deal with their own issues.
This goes for you too.
Moons.

"How does your trainer teach weave poles?"  

We have a line of 6 2x2 poles (3 on each side) and started out with them parallel, driving through the middle to touch the target. Then over the course of several classes we're gradually turning poles so they're less parallel and more in line, requiring more of a weave action from the dog over time.  We're also luring with the treat in hand.  

So if correcting isn't the way to go, why is he 10x better after correcting?