I like American show bloodlines. Crosses anyone? - Page 1

Well, I understand the bashing of the American show ring dog.  In  fact, I completely agree with the general concensus that these dogs are ruined.

But, I see TONS of American show bloodlines earning high level performance titles; earning performance titles in diverse areas; and passing a lot of health and temperament tests.  And, they are quite pretty doing it!!

I think the bizarre show ring dog is a VERY small part of the American show bloodline and I would even say it is really the "Specialty" type of dog that is ruined.  Furthermore, I believe any dog that is bred, specifically, for the conformation ring and that's all is bound to be ruined...American or German.

But, I am certainly not going to throw the entire American bloodlines under the bus because of a small group of extreme showdogs!!

Just because a dog doesn't have a ScH title doesn't make him crap. I see lots of Am. bloodlines with advanced herding titles, advanced obedience or agility titles; passing temperament tests; volunteering at pet expos to let kids brush them; etc.  Plus, I have seen...it's hard to get into ScH if you are a GSDCA mmeber. How do we know that these dogs could never do ScH? Maybe some of them just do not have the opportunity or the support?

Why aren't advanced AKC titles considered in determing whether a dog is a working dog?  So, if a dog has a UD, HX, and TDX and has passed a BH and temperament test are they really that inferior to a dog that has a ScH 1?

I love a lot of things about all the different german shepherds!  I like the color, bone/substance, coat, and pretty heads of the German Showline dog. I like the athleticism, health, and build of the German working line dogs. But, I also like the shoulder, front leg placement, gait, and back of the american bloodline (not the extreme showdog though).

Has anyone ever seen crosses between American show ring bloodlines and German working bloodlines?

The only one that I see advertised is this dog:
 http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=548068

Seems to me that if we mix the three groups we would end up with perfect dogs!!

Sara

Nobody? Doesn't anyone think there are good and bad dogs of each group? Is it possible that there are dedicated breeders from each group trying to produce the proper GSD? Can't we all get along? I Dislike greatly the infighting.... I just want everyone to do a huge group hug!!! Please. :-(

Here's my girl  :http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=523413 

She was a show/breeding prospect until her pigment faded, and her x-rays came back mildly dysplastic in one hip.

Now she's in training as my Hearing Ear service dog. She has superb temperament: very quick and eager to learn and great with kids. She has picked up some of the alerting tasks already just by watching Ranger, my soon-to-be retired service dog. She has good play/prey drive, but I'm not into schutzhund. I think she could do well at it, but I just don't have the time!

Despite her other flaws, I really like her overall structure. It's nice and moderate, with nothing exaggerated. Okay, the ears could be smaller and the earset better, and a few other little things...


I think this breeding blended two of the very best lines from the German and American dogs.
 

Smiley the dog you linked that you said is a "American show/german working cross" is not a German working cross at all.   It's all German Show on the bottom....not working lines.  Personally I wouldn't touch an AM line dog with a 20 foot poll.  There is just nothing that makes them desirable for me. That's my opinion though, others may like them.  How many American show line dogs are doing police work in comparison to working line dogs? I agree herding is definitely something for a working dog, but they should be trying to work more of them in Schutzhund. Volunteering at Pet expos, doing agility and OB are obviously good things for any dog to do. However  I'm not convinced many AM show line breeders even breed for work (the work that the maker of the breed started them in), but hey, maybe someone can show me wrong on that.

Sunsilver,  regardless of the fact that I would never own a show line (No one needs to take that statement the wrong way, it's just my preference), you definitely have a pretty dog there.

Hi,
  As a 14yr member of the GSDCA I have seen a trend towards american Xwest german show and they are looking pretty damn good with lots of titles as you have said .But 14yrs ago my AM.show dog was very shy couldn't trust her so I went to WGShowline love the looks and the wonderful temperment.So I believe that the crossing can only be a great thing for the breed 1 kennel that I know is KENLYN .

Sara,

Interesting you bring this up. There are people that see a new direction for the AM line. There are breeders that have combined their AM stock with some German blood. The crosses I have seen have been dogs that had enough angulation to be acceptable with more color and substance. They did well at the one or two shows I saw them in. The judges accepted them.

There have been some males in the past that were campaigned AKC and became Champions. Most recent was VA Liedo. What appears to be on the verge of happening is acceptance and a movement towards the German dog through a combination of both lines. Bear in mind breeders that have spent generations developing what they think are good dogs don't give up their work overnight. Some have changed, some will never change, some will transition.

The transition group is what could be interesting and where the opportunity is. Those with a bit of an open mind about what they are doing. I anticipate some that begin crossing will eventually switch as they become exposed to the other type of dog. But it doesn't matter.

This opens up another set of opportunities. Let's face it the German dogs are just too complicated to show and train for the average person or family. Your post here about a simple 10.00 scorebook is a perfect example of the mess the German dog faces in the US. It has been my personal experience that 98% of the families that get dogs cannot penetrate the German System on their own. The AKC has a network all over the country. It's fairly easy to enter and show. It's something the family can do. If you want to show dogs, you can do AKC shows within reasonable distances all the time. It's something the family can do each month. This opportunity simply does not exist in the WDA or USA.

So what to do? Here's what we're doing. It's a test. We're loading up the German dogs this weekend and going to an AKC show. Prepare to be slaughtered? Maybe, but I don't think so. This show has a different atmosphere. Judges are Dr. Goldfarb and Helen Gleason. Both judges have experience with the German and AKC dogs. They will be holding a seminar after the judging to explain the differences between the dogs. I think it will be very informative. We have entered 5 in the show.

Good points Dog1 about the German style shows being a pain to enter for the average dog owner.  I show under the GSDCA-WDA shows, so first you must order the 4 generation pedigree from AKC.  Nope, not the 3 gen. one that they offer when you register your dog, have to go online or call them and get the 4 gen. one, I think that runs you about $32.  Then you have to make sure your pet is tattooed or microchipped.  You must take them to the vet to have them sign a form that they read the tattoo or microchip, send that form along with $15 and the pedigree to GSDCA-WDA to have the pedigree certified by them.  Also you have to send an additional $15 for the scorebook that if you are never going to do schutzhund, you will never use, but you have to have it.  Oh and these are the member prices, so if you're not a member you can also include your $50 membership fee to become a member for a year, or you can pay the non-member prices for the scorebook and pedigree.  Then to enter the show, you need copies of all these items as well as vaccine certificate from your vet.  When you go to the show, if your dog is microchipped you are expected to provide your own microchip scanner to identify your dog.  You better have hired a handler, because if you walk in the ring alone without having a double handler, no matter how ring trained your dog is, the judge will be angry with you.  If your dog is under 1 year your ratings are equivalent to a "puppy match."  If the dog is between 1-2 years you can get an "official" rating for a young dog, and if your dog is over 2 you can't enter a regular class for a rating unless you have schutzhund titled your dog.  All of this is pretty complicated for a newbie!  In comparison, AKC and UKC you fill out a form and include about $25, you can handle your own dog, and maybe come out with some ribbons!  What would you do if you were new to the sport??

I also like a lot of the mixed lines, the dogs I breed are of mixed lines.  That being said, it's harder to place these dogs into homes where they will be shown or worked because of the predjudice towards one line or another.  Top show/working people are going to go with the well-known lines that they are familiar with, they generally won't take a chance on a "new" breeder or line.  Training and showing a dog, especially to top levels, is time consuming and expensive.  In many cases, the only way these dogs will be shown is if the breeder themselves keeps and shows the dogs, and they can only keep and show so many dogs, and the more dogs they have, the less time and money they are able to spend on each individual dog.  See where this is going?  So the next best hope is to get new people involved in the sports.

Then to top it all off, you have to have tough skin to show up at a show or training with your dog that isn't of the "type" people are accustomed to.  There are good, nice clubs out there, but there are some that are not.  I signed up for an AD and BH at a schutzhund trial, this was my first experience in the schutzhund world.  The people there were so rude that they criticized the embroidered GSD that I had on my shirt, right in front of me!  They were shocked that I didn't have my dog kept in a bombproof metal crate in my car.  They were even more shocked when we received a "PASS" in our scorebook.  My next 2 schutzhund experiences with other clubs were much more pleasant, but for many that first experience would have been the end.

Dog1, let us know how your show weekend goes!  I have shown my dogs in AKC conformation before, but I've never had enough $$ or helpers to get them all in the ring at once.

Hurrah for Dog l.  Good luck at the shows.  The only thing I might ad to the above is that I do believe MOST Am. showlines are x-raying for HD/ED;  why not DM and some of the other extremely detremental diseases the breed passes on.  I have not seen too many AM. showlines checking past HD/ED, occasionally eye cerf's;  but only occasionally.  What's up with that?  Shame on sticking their heads in the sand.  DM is a devastating and horrific bring the dog down disease with testing VERY available to everyone.  Why not take advantage to save our breed?  Nan