NASS Studs - Page 1

I was checking several of the stud dogs that competed in the NASS. 

May I ask a few questions?

Why do these dogs imported from Germany not have OFA hips and Elbows as well as their kkl thing?  I was just wondering since if they were imported and they are here in US now than why not just send x-rays into OFA?

Also, why don't these dogs have DM test results?

In addition, I have never seen a German import with an OFA thyoid or Cardiac test.

I have become increasingly convinced that the German breeding system is superior but I am troubled by these findings as I would not feel comfortable breeidng to a dog without these basic reuirements.

Is there some sort of "culture" that is prevelent that does not support OFA testing for imported German dogs?


Thank you very much,

Sara

I think you should research the SV' A stamp program. All these dogs presented must have DNA, Hip and Elbow (a stamp), pass a BH(12 mile endurance test) ,  pass the BH ( basic OB and temperament test) as well as obtain a working titles before being presented before a judge in at any SV show if the dog is over the age of two. I assure you that all of the "studs" males presented at this years NASS have passed all of these requirements. .

In addition most do not want to repeat the process for OFA. SV 'a' stamp is more than satisfactory and it's recognized by the WDA where OFA elbows are not. You would be basically going through the expense to get duplicate information that would be of no use.

The OFA DM test is an interesting subject. We tested our male and the results were neg/neg which according to the site means neither the stud dog nor any of it's offspring are at risk for DM. It appears selective breeding of dogs that are at risk can eliminate DM in one generation as long as the breeder continues to be aware of the results of the breeding partners. There is no where to put the information on the NASS entry form where it can be taken into consideration. It's a good question to ask the stud owner if your female is 'at risk'. Some things you just have to ask as the organizations can't include everything overnight.

I don't run across many German dogs with thyroid, cardiac, or CERF testing done. I see some AKC breeders publish their results on their dogs. The results of these tests do not seem to be sought after in the German circles.

I think if you look at the SV system, you'll see a history of progression to improve the dog. Examples would be dentition, elbows, HD/ED results being a requirement to show at the sieger show, size, etc. I don't think there is another system that can compare. 

Thank you both but I must, respectfully, disagree.....

I do not think it is a wasted expense.  Please forgive/correct me if I am wrong but is it not true that an A stamp on hips may be given to a 12 month old puppy from the SV?  I know that a dog must be 2 to get an official OFA number for hips and elbows.

Why wouldn't a breeder want to OFA elbows as well?

Also, yes- a lot more american breeders (am. show line) are publishing the cardiac, thyroid, cerf, and DM results and I see it all the time.  I applaud them and hope to do the same testing on my WL bitch as she matures.

I have zero idea why more german imports are not tested for DM. That's just unacceptable to me.....

It seems to me that there is this weird air of "our dogs have zero health problems" in the German import world. Now, I have no idea!!  Maybe they really don't have health problems but I just need to see the tests and actual dogs to believe it!!  I really like some of those stud dogs but no way would I ever breed to one (in the future) without the testing.


**Edit- By the way, this goes for SL AND WL dogs that I see who are imported**


Sara

The SV system takes in account many generations and siblings before a ZW score (breeding value) is given.

If two (a)3 dogs are mated and one of the offspring has (a)1 hips and the rest of the offspring have (a)2 or (a)3 hips then the ZW score will be well into the 100's.

If two (a)1 dogs are mated and one of the offspring has (a)3 hips and the rest of the offspring have (a)1 hips then the ZW score will be in the high 90's.

As this dog's progeny is entered into the system, the ZW score is adjusted...... one set of bad hips will move the ZW score up many points, where 10 sets of good hips will only slightly lower the ZW score.

In the first example, the dog will be much more likely to produce less then (a)1 hips,

In the second example the dog will by much more likely to produce (a)1 hips....



The OFA that only looks at the specific dog - ignoring what is behind the dog.

The OFA will consider the first dog as more valuable then the second........IMO very short sighted.

Thank you....

Well, it seems to me that the best of both worlds would be to have an A stamp and also OFA results, correct?  How do they determine the hip scores in Germany? Is it by an x-ray at 12 months old?  Who reads the x-ray in Germany?  How reliable is the system?

Is every dog sired by a dog forced to get a hip check or only a select number presented?  Is there a way of knowing if hip scores from progeny are truly statistically significant?

I, actually, am a big fan of pennHip but that's another can of worms...

So, in everyone's experience, dogs that have A stamps: never, are highly unlikely, or are unlikely to ever sire dog with hip or elbow dsyplacia?

What about DM testing at the minimum (would like to see thyroid, cardiac, etc)?  Why isn't it done?

Sara

just because one dog is ofa exellent dosent mean the dog cannot produce mild.....

True.  I am sure the same goes for the german hip check at 12 months old....

I am new to this world. I am still learning and I admit that.  But, for the life of me, I don't understand the reluctance to health test breeding dogs.

I see some really nice dogs and I am baffled by the lack of health testing.  Why would one want to do the bare minimum when a breeding dog is concerned? If someone could just explain it to me than maybe I would understand....

Also, what I want to see is: if your dog gets DM, Moderate/severe HD, Severe allergies, severe gastrointestinal issues, cardiac issues, etc than the breeder will give you a 100% refund and not make you give the puppy you are attached too back and then give you a new puppy (probably from the same lines as the sick one).  If a breeder says look...here are all the health tests I did and the health tests for the other breeding dog and crap happens and this puppy got the bad roll of the dice and came out bad than I get that.  I understand. It happens. What I don't get is rolling the dice blindly.

I know that I will do every health test under the sun for my bitch when it comes breeding time.  I will try my best to prevent puppies from being born with issues and I will give a 100% refund back. It should not be about the money.

Ok..i apologize...off my soapbox.....Back to topic- Are dogs bred in America given this A stamp, as well, instead of having OFA/pennHip health testing?

Lastly, the DM test is SOOOO easy. It's just a cheek swab. It didn't cost me a lot to do.  Why the heck don't these dogs do DM testing when it could prevent a puppy from being born with the potential to develop the disease?

I just don't understand why these german dogs- both show and working- don't have a crap load of health testing.  It stinks as I am REALLY falling in love with these dogs!!

I am even pondering trying to get a breed survey down the line.....

Sara

As for the DM test... IMO it is because it is newer.  Not everyone even knows about it yet, not everyone is convinced of it yet, not everyone is convinced of the need for it.  I have seen more and more German dogs advertised as DM tested lately, I think more and more people will start to do it.  I personally just did my first one on my current female (who came back clear!).  I say give it time, keep educating people about it and more and more people will start doing it.  It took awhile for everyone to start doing elbows too.  I also think that people do not want to throw affected and carriers out of the gene pool, which IMO they shouldnt!!!  But some people will bash breeders thinking that they shouldnt breed an affected dog. 

As for hips, I think many people do not see a reason to do the OFA if the dog is already 'a' stamped.  Yes the 'a' stamp is done at 12 months and OFA is done at 24 months... but some dogs do not even come over here until they are older, many vets require that you knock the dog out and some people may not want to put the dog through that if it is not needed. 

Also, some people just do the bare min. that is required.  And for some, the 'a' stamp is just as good as OFA, or better since they have the ZW system too!  And yes, USA Born dogs can get the 'a' stamp through USCA.  I have done several of them on my USA bred/born dogs. 

As for giving 100% refund for everything under the sun.... sounds nice in theory, but IMO it isnt practical.  A puppy is a risk, everyone knows that.  Even if the breeder does everything possible to prevent health issues, they can still pop up!  And while most things are genetic, environment and how you raise the puppy can play a roll in some issues too!  If you take a puppy and feed it horrible food, pump it full of chemicals, and it ends up with allergies, who should we blame? 

Well I agree it will be handy when there is a box to check on entry forms or here on the database to list DM results, but I'm sure it will be a while. My stud dog Zamp von der Urbecke was entered and showed at the NASS and he has been tested clear N/N for DM as have all of my females been tested and gotten the same results, all lab results can be viewed on my website. The DM test as you've been told is a newer test and it will take a while I think to catch on, heck there are breeders near me that have convinced themselves that the German lines don't have DM therefore they don't need to test, but post on their site that their lines are clear for DM, which is crap. My friend owns a dog that came actually from a cross of both of these breeders bloodlines, she is 9 and is fully symptomatic and has tested AT RISK for DM, so I know they have it in their lines. Some people unfortunately choose to be oblivious while others just may flat out be unaware. 

As far as OFA goes I am with the rest of these posts, I imported my male at 3 1/2 years old, ZW score of 75 and a-normal hips and elbows, 5 times SchH3, IPO3. He is sound, has been worked hard his whole life and is now almost 5 years old. For myself and my clients his German hip and elbow certifications are enough, I don't need to put him through be wrestled on a table or knocked out risking injury or death to my beloved dog in order to satisfy someones need to see OFA results, they do nothing for me and mean nothing for my dog. In Germany one man looks at every hip x-ray of GSDs only, I think he would know better than a random group of 3 radiologists that look at everything from bulldogs to great danes. And yes, most dogs that stay in Germany past 12 months old are x-rayed, so the ZW score and the whole rating system in my eyes is very reliable.

As for the other testing, cardiac etc. I have actually looked into finding the clinics they put on and it's always months away and honestly then I have forgotten about it multiple times and missed them. It is something I would do for at least my stud dog. Now, clients never ask me for those things, it's usually all about the DM and the hips and elbows, because once they've gone to my website they've been educated about the DM testing. I have a ton of clients that have lost dogs to DM that never want to go through it again so one reason they come to me is because I test. Of course it's handy that those near me that also breed don't test as far as my sales go, but I'd rather lose sales and have them test their dogs for DM than for them to continue breeding without testing.

Anyways, gotta run to the vet for Rabies shots today, hope this was halfway informative LOL! 

Barbie