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by Rass on 06 October 2011 - 12:10
Interesting thread. Lots of bad advice. LOL
When I want something my dog has that has "high value" I get something of higher value (usually a bit of hot dog or a bit of chicken) and 'trade up' to get the dog to give me whatever he/she has. Did this from day one with my pup and I can now see her with ANYTHING and simply say, "What have you got? Let me see!" in a converstaional tone and she brings me "whatever" and gives it to me. If it is something she should not have, we go and get something she can have and remove the nasty/bad thing to an appropriate place. If it is something she CAN have, I give it back. It has become this game. It took a lot of time and consistancy on my part but both dogs will do this. My dog has given up very high value things, from a freshly killed mouse to a bit of nasty dessicated road kill to a bit of cat poop as a result of this training.
To get your dog to release, carry something of high value and trade. Keep doing it with the ball or whatever. When he releases the ball use a command cue (Give, Out, Aus whatever) Offer the food and swap. Then give the ball back, offer food and swap again. Rinse/repeat. It will take awhile but soon he will learn that you are willing to trade AND that just because he gives it to you does not mean he loses it.
As to slow response to command cues. Let me ask this question. What reason has he for obeying? "Because I said so" is not an answer if he is not obeying every time you ask now (or is slow to respond).
I train the behavior and then add the command cue. Many train both at the same time. I use a toy to increase speed. I have also used food. A marker word and release is good for this too. I will get my dog playing tug then stop tugging (make the toy 'dead') and ask for a sit. When the dog sits.. the instant she sits.. I say YES! (yes is the marker for getting it right) and then I say "go ahead" as her release and he gets back on the tug and I make it 'live.' Rinse repeat. I do variations of this with food. Always follow the marker with a reward (toy play or food). The toy you use should be one the dog does not have access to unless he is playing WITH you.
Out of curiosity, does this dog also growl at you if you go near him when he is eating? I am betting he does.. and if that is the case you need to take care of fixing that as well. Hand feed his meal and make him do various obedience things in order to get food... and all food comes from your hand.
When I want something my dog has that has "high value" I get something of higher value (usually a bit of hot dog or a bit of chicken) and 'trade up' to get the dog to give me whatever he/she has. Did this from day one with my pup and I can now see her with ANYTHING and simply say, "What have you got? Let me see!" in a converstaional tone and she brings me "whatever" and gives it to me. If it is something she should not have, we go and get something she can have and remove the nasty/bad thing to an appropriate place. If it is something she CAN have, I give it back. It has become this game. It took a lot of time and consistancy on my part but both dogs will do this. My dog has given up very high value things, from a freshly killed mouse to a bit of nasty dessicated road kill to a bit of cat poop as a result of this training.
To get your dog to release, carry something of high value and trade. Keep doing it with the ball or whatever. When he releases the ball use a command cue (Give, Out, Aus whatever) Offer the food and swap. Then give the ball back, offer food and swap again. Rinse/repeat. It will take awhile but soon he will learn that you are willing to trade AND that just because he gives it to you does not mean he loses it.
As to slow response to command cues. Let me ask this question. What reason has he for obeying? "Because I said so" is not an answer if he is not obeying every time you ask now (or is slow to respond).
I train the behavior and then add the command cue. Many train both at the same time. I use a toy to increase speed. I have also used food. A marker word and release is good for this too. I will get my dog playing tug then stop tugging (make the toy 'dead') and ask for a sit. When the dog sits.. the instant she sits.. I say YES! (yes is the marker for getting it right) and then I say "go ahead" as her release and he gets back on the tug and I make it 'live.' Rinse repeat. I do variations of this with food. Always follow the marker with a reward (toy play or food). The toy you use should be one the dog does not have access to unless he is playing WITH you.
Out of curiosity, does this dog also growl at you if you go near him when he is eating? I am betting he does.. and if that is the case you need to take care of fixing that as well. Hand feed his meal and make him do various obedience things in order to get food... and all food comes from your hand.
by Donnerstorm on 06 October 2011 - 14:10
Very good advice Rass, That's exactly how I teach pups what they can and can't chew on in the house. When I first got into dogs I tried the just correcting method for shoes, children's toys, rolls of toilet paper etc when the dogs had it and spent all day correcting I thought this is insane, so I decided to just that, if they had something they were not supp to have I just went over took it said thank you and gave them an appropriate toy, works like a charm, takes very little time for them to figure out what they can and can't have. I don't hand feed mine but from the time they are pups they still have to do something to get their food, wether it's sit, platz etc they are working dogs, there are no freebies, you want it you do something to earn it, even in play no free balls, etc you want it you earn it.
by Jon and buddy on 06 October 2011 - 15:10
thanks for all the positive messages posted, the long lead is working really well, by having him on the lead i can just walk away calling him getting him to chase me. Brilliant. Ive since taken him off briefly to check results which are encouraging. I now always walk him on the lead practising recall twice a day.
The toys are still a problem. I dont wanna see a trainer as i believe this to be a minor issue, Buddy is just very strong minded and stubborn. When i say he growls its probably 5 on a level of 1 to 10. I just tried introducing 2 balls in the house (controlled environment) its as if he changes charracter, he chews them to bits and will not release. i have to be sneaky to get them off him. once there away in the cupboard he is fine. There seems to be a little inconsitency on a workable solution on this as im sure you all have tried and tested ways. I really just need the safest way which (a) is not gonna cause him to much anxiety and (b) lets him know that when play time is over i decide.
thanks again.
jon and buddy
The toys are still a problem. I dont wanna see a trainer as i believe this to be a minor issue, Buddy is just very strong minded and stubborn. When i say he growls its probably 5 on a level of 1 to 10. I just tried introducing 2 balls in the house (controlled environment) its as if he changes charracter, he chews them to bits and will not release. i have to be sneaky to get them off him. once there away in the cupboard he is fine. There seems to be a little inconsitency on a workable solution on this as im sure you all have tried and tested ways. I really just need the safest way which (a) is not gonna cause him to much anxiety and (b) lets him know that when play time is over i decide.
thanks again.
jon and buddy
by steve1 on 07 October 2011 - 08:10
For what it is worth here is my take on the Op's problem
No1 Always use a long line to teach a young dog the recall. never loose.
No 2 Never use a soft ball with a young German Shepherd dog, the ball should be on a rope and made of a rock hard substance so the dog cannot chew it, or bite into it,
No 3 to teach and get the young dog to sit immediately, walk the dog a few paces then turn sharp into the dog without warning at the same time tell the dog to SIT and gently pull the leash backwards over the dogs shoulders, IT has no option but to Sit. stand in front and praise the dog ONCE only or give it a treat with the word of praise.
No 4 To get the Dog to let go the ball. First do as above number 3 so you are in front of the dog which is at a SIT.
You then command the dog to let go the Ball, it should by now know the word to release.
You tell the dog ONLY once, if it does not then TAKE the ball from the Dogs mouth, as soon as you have praise the dog only one or two words then give it a treat or give it back the ball and do it again .
Now if you use a soft ball the dog will and can bite in to it. If you use a rock hard ball it cannot bite into it and grip the same.
Now to take the ball from the Dogs mouth. FIRSTLY, the ball is on a rope. you DO not hold the rope because it will tension and the Dog will bite down harder this means you are fighting the dog and the dog will win every time. You hold the leash short but calmly. You then tell the Dog to release the ball. if it does not then just get hold of the ball with two fingers and roll it to the side of the dogs mouth. Once the ball is past one of the Main teeth it will come out easy and it is done in a split second.
You then praise the dog and if you want give it back the ball and do it again . Do not keep doing it no more than 3 to 4 times a session, but several times a day starting with the NO 1 to Sit.
In a week or so the dog should be much calmer and letting go on command and sitting first time asked. NEVER keep a tight line on a dog or pull on a tug or toy with a young dog because you are then fighting the dog and the dog will win every time plus you are teaching it bad habits always have a loose line or on a toy so there is NO pressure on the young dogs mouth, if you do that then there is no reason for the dog to fight with you.
Steve1
No1 Always use a long line to teach a young dog the recall. never loose.
No 2 Never use a soft ball with a young German Shepherd dog, the ball should be on a rope and made of a rock hard substance so the dog cannot chew it, or bite into it,
No 3 to teach and get the young dog to sit immediately, walk the dog a few paces then turn sharp into the dog without warning at the same time tell the dog to SIT and gently pull the leash backwards over the dogs shoulders, IT has no option but to Sit. stand in front and praise the dog ONCE only or give it a treat with the word of praise.
No 4 To get the Dog to let go the ball. First do as above number 3 so you are in front of the dog which is at a SIT.
You then command the dog to let go the Ball, it should by now know the word to release.
You tell the dog ONLY once, if it does not then TAKE the ball from the Dogs mouth, as soon as you have praise the dog only one or two words then give it a treat or give it back the ball and do it again .
Now if you use a soft ball the dog will and can bite in to it. If you use a rock hard ball it cannot bite into it and grip the same.
Now to take the ball from the Dogs mouth. FIRSTLY, the ball is on a rope. you DO not hold the rope because it will tension and the Dog will bite down harder this means you are fighting the dog and the dog will win every time. You hold the leash short but calmly. You then tell the Dog to release the ball. if it does not then just get hold of the ball with two fingers and roll it to the side of the dogs mouth. Once the ball is past one of the Main teeth it will come out easy and it is done in a split second.
You then praise the dog and if you want give it back the ball and do it again . Do not keep doing it no more than 3 to 4 times a session, but several times a day starting with the NO 1 to Sit.
In a week or so the dog should be much calmer and letting go on command and sitting first time asked. NEVER keep a tight line on a dog or pull on a tug or toy with a young dog because you are then fighting the dog and the dog will win every time plus you are teaching it bad habits always have a loose line or on a toy so there is NO pressure on the young dogs mouth, if you do that then there is no reason for the dog to fight with you.
Steve1
by Jon and buddy on 07 October 2011 - 11:10
cheers again everyone, ill try these tips and let you know how it goes...
by ShadyLady on 07 October 2011 - 14:10
Ruger1, how did Kelly train Prince to be reliable with the out? Curious to know, as he was acting a bit sharp or suspicious with certain things, wasn't he?
by Ruger1 on 07 October 2011 - 16:10
Shadylady,
As I said in my OP, I do not know how Kelly taught Prince to "out". As you said, I sent Prince to Kelly for reasons related to his attitude. The out command, heeling patterns, and other OB exercises she taught him were just added bonuses to having his attitude adjusted lol !!! Send her a PM , I know she is very busy, but I bet she would be happy to share with you...: )
As I said in my OP, I do not know how Kelly taught Prince to "out". As you said, I sent Prince to Kelly for reasons related to his attitude. The out command, heeling patterns, and other OB exercises she taught him were just added bonuses to having his attitude adjusted lol !!! Send her a PM , I know she is very busy, but I bet she would be happy to share with you...: )
by ShadyLady on 07 October 2011 - 23:10
lol Possibly it was all related to the attitude adjustment then. ;-)
by Donnerstorm on 07 October 2011 - 23:10
As I was going back through this I just noticed the comments about me teaching bite inhibitions very early. I did not say I did it with my dog, and not EVERY owner wants a dog that bites or does sch, or personal protection. When that is the case and you or the owner don't want the dog to do bitework then yes it is best to teach that inhibition very early. It was a general statement about what that was used for by the old bird hunters to teach their dogs, and that is what they used it for. I live and grew up in a very rural area surrounded by hunters the older guys almost all used that particular method for mouthing pups and getting them to release the bird.
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