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by brynjulf on 02 March 2012 - 19:03
Yes and bit hard grabbed him on the inside of the thigh. Again this was a dog that was very gentle and non agressive.
by Cassandra Marie on 03 March 2012 - 15:03
Yes - and not just German Shepherds.
by live4schutzhund on 03 March 2012 - 16:03
Tried to read through all the posts before posing the question.
Has anyone discussed the behavior/reaction of the "bad guy" at the moment of initial confrontation? I think the reaction of an untrained dog immediately following the initial "greating" greatly influences the decision the dog makes.
Does the bad guy hesitate, back up, cower, run, yell, crouch in the dark to look smaller (as if the dog wont see them lol). Or is the bad guy fearless and charge with confidence.
I read a few pages back someone makes the statement "The dog deciding whether or not it will win the fight before engaging". Sorry if the quote is not exact but its close enough. I think this decision making is done based on the bad guys behavior.
Another poster listed his experience testing hundreds of completely green dogs for PP. I think his input would be most accurate to ansewer the question, however a stab in the dark guess (no quantifiable data) would be that most bad guys would display fearfull/prey type bodylanguage at initial confrontation with the dog.
If someone has quantifiable data testing green dogs acting like a real bad guy would act, scared sh*tless, and can show the dogs more apt to fight.....then I would say, get a scary looking dog ;)
Has anyone discussed the behavior/reaction of the "bad guy" at the moment of initial confrontation? I think the reaction of an untrained dog immediately following the initial "greating" greatly influences the decision the dog makes.
Does the bad guy hesitate, back up, cower, run, yell, crouch in the dark to look smaller (as if the dog wont see them lol). Or is the bad guy fearless and charge with confidence.
I read a few pages back someone makes the statement "The dog deciding whether or not it will win the fight before engaging". Sorry if the quote is not exact but its close enough. I think this decision making is done based on the bad guys behavior.
Another poster listed his experience testing hundreds of completely green dogs for PP. I think his input would be most accurate to ansewer the question, however a stab in the dark guess (no quantifiable data) would be that most bad guys would display fearfull/prey type bodylanguage at initial confrontation with the dog.
If someone has quantifiable data testing green dogs acting like a real bad guy would act, scared sh*tless, and can show the dogs more apt to fight.....then I would say, get a scary looking dog ;)
by cphudson on 03 March 2012 - 16:03
My older neighbor was a retired doctor that loved GSD's. He always had 1 long as I new him. He did not do any former training with them other than obedience work & walks in the park.
Back in the early 80's we had a rash of break-ins in our neighborhood. A young man broke into his home one night & hit him over the head trying to knock him out. He reach up from the floor to open
the back door & let in his GSD. His GSD did not bark / growl just lunged at the intruder & 1/2 ripped out his throat. His owner has to pull off his dog & start ER care on the guy while the ambulance was on their way.
The doctor saved this guy life, he was in the hospital for weeks. The intruder tried to sue the doctor for his dog's attack & serve damaged he caused. The judge throw the case out of court, saying "if you don't want this to happen again then I suggest you stop breaking in & entering plus hurting the home owners they might have a GSD" LOL
The break-ins in our neighborhood did continue & get much more violent, but the retired doctor, myself, & any other owner of GSD's homes were never touched over the years.
Back in the early 80's we had a rash of break-ins in our neighborhood. A young man broke into his home one night & hit him over the head trying to knock him out. He reach up from the floor to open
the back door & let in his GSD. His GSD did not bark / growl just lunged at the intruder & 1/2 ripped out his throat. His owner has to pull off his dog & start ER care on the guy while the ambulance was on their way.
The doctor saved this guy life, he was in the hospital for weeks. The intruder tried to sue the doctor for his dog's attack & serve damaged he caused. The judge throw the case out of court, saying "if you don't want this to happen again then I suggest you stop breaking in & entering plus hurting the home owners they might have a GSD" LOL
The break-ins in our neighborhood did continue & get much more violent, but the retired doctor, myself, & any other owner of GSD's homes were never touched over the years.
by guddu on 03 March 2012 - 17:03
This is a fantastic article, worth reading.
The Swedes studied about 2700 GSD's.http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18502884
The table shows that eg, Hardness and Courage have an almost 0.95 correlation in GSD's.
Defense drive has a 0.8 for courage, 0.81 for sharpness (aggressiveness), and little correlation with affability!.
by live4schutzhund on 04 March 2012 - 14:03
Guddu thanks for the link. Several other studies with the same animals done. Interesting data. Fascinating there appears to be variance based on size of litter and time of year born. Also interesting that the hard data proves what most already knew that dogs displaying high willingness to please (Driven by praise) tested negatively in other areas. I looked at several of the studies then it stopped letting me pull the entire article for free...
by Cassandra Marie on 06 March 2012 - 17:03
Live4Schutzhund: Has anyone discussed the behavior/reaction of the "bad guy" at the moment of initial confrontation? I think the reaction of an untrained dog immediately following the initial "greating" greatly influences the decision the dog makes.
I am basing my answer on 2 life threatening experiences I had prior to being in GSD. I found that in both instances there's an energy that the "bad guy" gives off before exhibiting any aggressive behavior. The intended victim ( in this case me) has a sense something is about to occur. It's where the hair on the back of one's neck stands up. Experts refer to this as a "Gift of Fear".
That being said, I have found my own GSDs that have been in situations where protection occurred, actually assessed the looming danger PRIOR to any action initiated by the offender. I believe that dogs are even more hyper-vigiliant to pre-eminent danger than a human and IMO this hyper vigiliance is triggered by the energy ,adrenaline or some sort of scent that is released by the bad guy. An example I think may demonostrate my thoughts, occurred a few years ago. My SAR K9, Richter, and I were at a benched dog show in Detroit along with our SAR team. I received permission from show officials to take my dog outside to a parking ramp to relieve himself. The parking ramp was elevated and overlooked a sidewalk and road below. This put us in a position where we had a birdseye view of the activity taking place for at least a couple blocks . Approximately a block away, 2 guys were walking down the sidewalk headed in the direction of the parking ramp. These men were following behind a large group of people that were leaving the dog show. This group of people appeared oblivious to the 2 men behind them. Something about these men caused my dog to assume a guard stance and visually lock on to them. He intently watched these men as they approached the parking ramp, yet totally disregarded the group of folks in front of them. At one point these 2 guys sensed my dog staring at them. They began acting nervously and they in turn would not take their eyes off Richter. This went on for a minute or two. The 2 men suddenly turned around, and returned back to where they had come from. Once they did that, Richter completely relaxed his guard stance. Evaluating my dog's action and how the 2 guys nervously responded, leads me to the conclusion that something was going to happen.
So I think more than an action, I believe there's a scent or energy that initially occurs before the bad guy strikes. IMO this is what alerts the dog to the possible need to protect. Then followed by the an action from the bad guy, the dog reacts.
I am basing my answer on 2 life threatening experiences I had prior to being in GSD. I found that in both instances there's an energy that the "bad guy" gives off before exhibiting any aggressive behavior. The intended victim ( in this case me) has a sense something is about to occur. It's where the hair on the back of one's neck stands up. Experts refer to this as a "Gift of Fear".
That being said, I have found my own GSDs that have been in situations where protection occurred, actually assessed the looming danger PRIOR to any action initiated by the offender. I believe that dogs are even more hyper-vigiliant to pre-eminent danger than a human and IMO this hyper vigiliance is triggered by the energy ,adrenaline or some sort of scent that is released by the bad guy. An example I think may demonostrate my thoughts, occurred a few years ago. My SAR K9, Richter, and I were at a benched dog show in Detroit along with our SAR team. I received permission from show officials to take my dog outside to a parking ramp to relieve himself. The parking ramp was elevated and overlooked a sidewalk and road below. This put us in a position where we had a birdseye view of the activity taking place for at least a couple blocks . Approximately a block away, 2 guys were walking down the sidewalk headed in the direction of the parking ramp. These men were following behind a large group of people that were leaving the dog show. This group of people appeared oblivious to the 2 men behind them. Something about these men caused my dog to assume a guard stance and visually lock on to them. He intently watched these men as they approached the parking ramp, yet totally disregarded the group of folks in front of them. At one point these 2 guys sensed my dog staring at them. They began acting nervously and they in turn would not take their eyes off Richter. This went on for a minute or two. The 2 men suddenly turned around, and returned back to where they had come from. Once they did that, Richter completely relaxed his guard stance. Evaluating my dog's action and how the 2 guys nervously responded, leads me to the conclusion that something was going to happen.
So I think more than an action, I believe there's a scent or energy that initially occurs before the bad guy strikes. IMO this is what alerts the dog to the possible need to protect. Then followed by the an action from the bad guy, the dog reacts.
by Bhaugh on 07 March 2012 - 04:03
This is actually OT but Id like to know how many sport dogs would actually bite the intruder?
Two dogs that have protected me a german shepherd and a lab. Since when should protection be breed specific?
Two dogs that have protected me a german shepherd and a lab. Since when should protection be breed specific?
by doggiedoo on 12 March 2012 - 20:03
who can say...
police K9 which are supposedly trained to bite people, do not always do what the trainers expected them to do, on either side of the coin...some bite well at first some dont, and that doesnt mean they are the ones they thought would do well or not so well, in training...
the better question is what sport dogs HAVE bitten in a real protection application...as opposed to "how many WOULD?"
and just because a dog is being trained for a sport, does not mean it might not be getting additional training for a protection aspect...
the question calls for complete speculation....
how many would? some will some wont, and that doesnt mean they will be the ones that the owners or trainers thought would or wouldnt...
police K9 which are supposedly trained to bite people, do not always do what the trainers expected them to do, on either side of the coin...some bite well at first some dont, and that doesnt mean they are the ones they thought would do well or not so well, in training...
the better question is what sport dogs HAVE bitten in a real protection application...as opposed to "how many WOULD?"
and just because a dog is being trained for a sport, does not mean it might not be getting additional training for a protection aspect...
the question calls for complete speculation....
how many would? some will some wont, and that doesnt mean they will be the ones that the owners or trainers thought would or wouldnt...
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