Is the HDZ system working? - Page 1

I would like to know if the HDZ system, introduced by SV, is working in some way to eliminate (or reduce along the time) the Hip Displasia in the German Shepherd. Does somebody got numbers on that? is there any other system in test to help to get in the objective?

I guess there must be some information, measurements, about how is it affecting the breed in a positive way. Every effort is valid and if there is a project I am sure someone in giving a followup to make sure the goals are going to be achieved rigth?

José, there ia a published report on the S.V.'s website where they give themselves credit for a gradual reduction in HD results. Go to this link: http://www.schaeferhunde.de/site/fileadmin/download/informationen/info_zba-907_hd-verfahren.pdf Bob-O

The SV is not the only one using the ZW system. It has also proven to be effective with other breeds. Not just for HD, some breeds use a ZW system for other issues as well. The problems I see with the current HD ZW system is that the results are somewhat tweaked towards the positive due to some of the negative results not being submitted since they will affect the ZW. The system would be more correct and effective if all x-rays had to be submitted regardless of outcome. In a way it still is working because either way the dogs with undesirable results will be filtered out of the breeding stock. Current public misconception that a3 means dysplasia keeps many possible a3 from even being sent in. So these dogs will never make it into the breeding pool. Not a perfect system, but better than most.

I am happy to know it is working! Thats very sad to raise a puppy for one year, get involved whith him, just to discover he is displasic. In many cases we become so involved that we keep the puppy and then if there is not enought space we just cant raise an other one! I had seen it happen. So, let keep on the road, against displasia.

I agree D.H.. Regardless of whether it is the S.V., O.F.A., or F.C.I. the true results of all progeny are not currently know, and to some extent will never be known, as some never x-ray, and others withold x-rayy per the advice of their veterinarian or their own judgement. Especially with the ZW, a dog or bitch's breed value can change drastically if suddenly an offspring appears with "a"4 or "a"5 hips, and if there is some loyalty to the breeder wh produced this puppy the REAL effect on the dog's improvement may never be known. Some system for improvement is better than no system, I am sure on this matter that we all agree. That is where the ZW system has more value than a more simple system such as the O.F.A. or similar registry. I think that the "a"3 still needs a chance to prove its value otherwise, albeit a careful one. At least with an "a"3 one can feel well about the fact that the dog has hips that should remain sound throughout the dog's life. Bob-O

Hi there José! The system is NOT working the way it was intended/supposed to, don't let you tell otherwise. I am currently working on an elaborate study about the development of HD, covering 1986-2003. You will be surprised to learn no major improvement was made in the occurrance of HD, statistics show no important changes after the introduction of the system. Of course the HD-ZW-system COULD be a good instrument, in practise it has shown NOT to be sufficient. It will need further adjustments to be accurate and other stringent measures will be necessary. Give me some more time to finish the study, it will be published on my website soon.

Janti, What is your website?

I hope you are not spinning your numbers again Jantie. Your study could be a good tool IF you kept your personal emotions out of it and did not approach it with the goal to show doom, but facts. Bob-O and Jose, the system is working in the regard that the people are ushered towards the better results. Unfortunately even breeding with continually good hips will not guarantee good hips in the offspring. Not all dogs may be in the stats but at least the numbers are large enough to be representative. Fact is also that for few dogs a poor HD results is actually lethal. Many live productive lives as many previous posts on this site have shown. People shy away from treatments, many of which are a lot less invasive and do not include a total hip replacement. My fathers girlfriend had a Rottie with severe HD, a small operation that cut a muscle in the area pushed the joint together. Last time I saw that dog was when she was 12 and still going strong. I have seen other dogs with other treatments that also worked well. I have placed one youngster that I just had a feeling would not turn out well and then his prelims confirmed that. He was placed with a guarantee that if he breaks down before age 5 the owner will get a new pup. We discussed that expensive and invasive treatments would not be an option, what some of the less invasive treatments were, and how this dog needs to be cared for so that he will stay healthy (ie not over work him, not overfeed him). He is doing well and going strong. You should see the x-rays, very bad. Unfortunately that boy was at a place as a pup where he was not raised ideally. It is still my opinion that that was probably the largest contributing factor. All the other pups in that litter are fine. The ZW is only part of the HD scenario. Science is still divided on how much genetics play a role and how much environment does. A few years ago while I was driving I listened to a radio program in which HD was discussed. They talked about a 5000 year old canine skeletton that was found in ancient Persia that showed HD. If its been around that long, there is not way that we can get rid of it in a few generations of breeding.

Agreed, D.H.. It will NEVER be eliminated unless the exact multiple gene grouping can be identified, isolated, and removed/altered. And our dogs would essentially become genetically-altered animals of some futuristic fantasy world, no? And while excellent health is paramount; who would really want this to be our world, as no doubt we humans would be next. It's just my opinion, but some things were never meant to happen. There are many professional arguments about the true value of HDZW, and you know yourself that while each side presents a very useful and seemingly factual argument, that there is virtually no clear and concise agreement as to which system really works. Frustrating, I agree. I often thought that since the F.C.I. is the true world authourity over all recognized canine clubs and registries that perhaps they should assemble the best-of-the-best practices from each type and purpose of canine health registry, and write the empirical rules (without exceptions for any country) that all reporting registries must follow for a HDZW system, or any other ZW system related to the reduction of other maladies as you mentioned. Perfect world-I know. If the various hip-scoring regsitries have done nothing else, they have demonstrated some marked improvement during the last fourty (40) years-no question there. Not perfect, no doubt. Does each have a very clear vision/mission/method for further improvement in the future? I can't comment on that past what these organizations say about themselves. Bob-O (rambling Bob-O)